SB swing -VS- BB swing

[theaddition]

BD, I agree with you on the topic of spacing ... although IMO creating spacing with timing has advantages in terms of creating dynamic hip/shoulder spatial separation further downstream ... i.e. allowing for the setup to have the hips leading shoulders, naturally, within a clean kinetic sequence. Spacing is indeed part of the equation IMO, and I want to see it created during the “Stretch” portion of the swing.

View the video below in which Mike Candrea is demonstrating the one-arm top-hand drill. Notice that he speaks of both “spacing” and the “hands”.

Yes to “spacing” … but as Tom pointed out … yes to the “hands” also.

I have found that with my DD rotating via HPP enhances her bat drag.
When I tell her to work on the elbows working in unison, at least initially, she gets the results I am after in terms of ridding bat drag.
A HPP does the complete opposite to her.

BD

 

[Greenmonsters]

Green ... PFC may be a real phenomenon. One of the better hitting coaches in our area sent his kid to a different hitting coach whose concepts he agreed with. Reason for not coaching his own kid was to preserve the parent/daughter relationship and that he thought his kid would listen better to a different instructor. Knock on wood ... kid received a scholarship to play at a top D1 program. Worked out well.

PFC real or not, the benefits of having someone else coach your kid can be significant, as long as you're on board w/ their methods and approach. I was a D1 BB catcher, but my DD's catching coach is Dave Weaver (and his DVD). Finally may have found the hitting solution too. As Dad, I just have to make observations and occasional reminders of coach's instructions - much more productive and fun this way.

GM

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

PFC real or not, the benefits of having someone else coach your kid can be significant, as long as you're on board w/ their methods and approach. I was a D1 BB catcher, but my DD's catching coach is Dave Weaver (and his DVD). Finally may have found the hitting solution too. As Dad, I just have to make observations and occasional reminders of coach's instructions - much more productive and fun this way.

GM

Exactly! Assuming weekly hitting instruction ... you become the "hitting coach" away from her "hitting coach". The goal during the week is simply to practice that week's objectives or "points of emphasis" ... and any points of disagreement between you & DD are resolved once/wk during the instruction session. Knowing that ... both you & DD remain more relaxed and focused on the "homework" or "points of emphasis" from her "official hitting instructor".

Many benefits to this. DD will generally buy into the instruction more ... and if the instruction is indeed good, then there is 'more' focus that is "well targeted' and 'bought into' ... and at the same time the daughter/parent relationship is more relaxed.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I have found that with my DD rotating via HPP enhances her bat drag.
When I tell her to work on the elbows working in unison, at least initially, she gets the results I am after in terms of ridding bat drag.
A HPP does the complete opposite to her.

BD

BD ... I suspect there is a difference in interpretation. I’d have to see your daughter’s swing to understand how she is interpreting “rotating via HPP” and how it enhances ‘bat drag’.

Bat drag is simply the act of “dragging” the barrel … it isn’t any more complicated than that. People make it much more complicated … and IMO because they are bypassing the simple question of what “drag” is. Bat drag is not a “position” or an orientation at a particular “position” … it is an “action” … and as such, we have it in our ability to control.

Many people use the “check point” of having the elbow ahead of the hands at the “RVP connection point position” to detect ‘bat drag’. I’m not saying that is a bad “check point” … but I am saying that “bat drag” can technically be detected prior to the “RVP connection point position”, since all one has to do is view the barrel to determine if it is being “dragged”.

Another way to view this is that the hand & elbow orientation at the “RVP connection point position” is a “result” … it is a result of the barrel being “dragged” … and since it is a “result”, the physical act of “dragging” the barrel is taking place prior to the “RVP connection point position” … and hence the cure for “bat drag” is upstream … and that cure, is actually quite simple … simply don’t drag the barrel in the first place … that is, give the hands/body a role other than to simply drag or pull the bat along the length of the barrel.

The barrel will travel approximately 180 degrees from ‘launch’ to ‘contact’. Of that 180 degrees, 90 degrees will be accounted for by the rotation of the hips/torso. That leaves another 90 degrees to account for … and we know that powering the swing with the “arms” is a ‘no-no’. The hands/wrists, along with the rear forearm, will contribute significantly to the remaining 90 degrees of barrel rotation.

Here is where many people miss things. They don’t take into account the barrel path of elite hitters. The more I viewed elite hitters, the more I became to believe that they were using their hands to contribute to the barrel path. That led to a 2yr study on my part … numerous video testing while performing experiments with respect to “actions under the hood” … numerous discussions with the “teacher man”, many of which were highly heated … numerous attempts to understand Jack Mankin, another person that clued into the significance of the barrel path … and IMO, based on closely tracking what he put together, he did revise his THT theory … and IMO correctly. What I’m saying is that I respect anyone’s opinion that the hands are not used … because it literally took me two years to figure it out.

All that said … the “hips” and “hands” (inclusive of wrists & forearms) are, IMO, largely responsible for bringing the barrel to contact … and it shouldn’t surprise anyone that the hands (+ wrists & rear forearm), which can roughly be associated with 50% of that rotation, result in a pressure sensation on the hands … even at swing initiation.

Donny Buster summarized ‘bat drag’ quite simply with a page of bullet points. I view what he wrote now and say “yeah, of course” … but it took me a long time to get to that point.

Again … this isn’t an argument I expect to win over the Internet … and certainly not with a single post. I had my multi-year battle with the concept ... and it was a highly significant effort on my part ... and looking back, I don't know why I personally made something so simple, so complicated.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

HPP or elbowPP ?

Pulling rear hip or push swing ?

See:

A Little Somethin Somethin.... - Teacherman's HittingIllustrated.com

and

Buckett Dad..... - Teacherman's HittingIllustrated.com

Tom ... my computer is blocked from your links. Can you give a description?

 

[tom.guerry]

these are on the open forum.

you may have to register but there is no fee.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

these are on the open forum.

you may have to register but there is no fee.

They aren't free to me.

 

[tom.guerry]

you must be on the naughty list. main text of first link:

There are 3 Major Checkpoints the 'body' must accomplish and accomplish in order....to properly 'prep' for the upcoming goal....which is 'turn the barrel'.

Checkpoint #1: Quality rear hip socket separation. A quality coil. The rear hip coiling rearward AGAINST a rear leg that is INTERNALLY rotating. Movement JUST in the hip socket. Leg is firm. Femur is firm. Rock solid. Hip turns about the ball of the femur. This action is felt MOSTLY in the glute and the inner thigh of the rear leg.

Checkpoint #2: Tight lower back muscles just above the rear hip....the latissimus dorsi (I think....and others?) pulling the torso rearward....against the resisting INTERNALLY rotating rear leg.

Latissimus dorsi muscle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Checkpoint #3: A 'pinched and clamped down' scap. The Rhomboids pulling the scap toward the spine and holding it there. It must be held....not released....until after the corner. When you pinch the scap....you should feel movement in your rear leg....you should feel a pull against the rear leg. If you don't....a checkpoint is missing. Something between is not tight.

Rhomboid muscles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When all has been accomplished....in order....you are left with the hands stretched against the rear leg. Rear side resistance.

When the hands turn the barrel....the 'go' move....all resistance is released.....the rear leg defeats the hip and the lat and the scap and the barrel is yanked....whipped....into autopilot.

Stretch n Fire.

A wave. A sequence. A spiral of energy upward, so to speak. Starts in the hip socket....spirals upward.

You anatomists.....feel free to correct my muscle names. Or add to them.

 

[tom.guerry]

excerpts from second thread concerning the clip here of BD's daughter and using Kinsler for comparison:

the angry pool hall owner ("APHA"):

.....she's pushing the bat.


No overlap. No whip. No drive train.

Gotta get those hands behind the engine.

She's swinging with her chest. Kinlser swings with his back.

And......if you load the front shoulder you pretty much eliminate the drive train....and the lead shoulder has nothing to do with fixing bat drag.

Nothing wrong with the shoulder 'down and in'....just get it there with coil in the rear hip socket....not with a lead shoulder load

----


Quote:
A HPP does the complete opposite to her.
....meaning it causes or encourages bat drag.

Angry pool hall owner says....

Simply....physically.....impossible.

However....when you think you are creating a HPP.....but actually have an elbow pivot point....because you did the up and over.....or something similar....AND BECAUSE SHE IS OUT OF PATTERN.....without stretch....anything can happen.....and it will.....and it is almost always misread.

And.....you better listen to Tom. You are dragging the bat if you are not turning the handle. With or without the elbow leading the hands....if you aren't turning the handle....you are dragging the barrel.

No ifs ands or buts about it.

 

[tom.guerry]

further in the thread are clips of BD's daughter and some of swingbuilder's hitters 1-6.

APHA: See it? They are all doing the same thing....out of pattern.

1chapterahead: Looking at this makes me think maybe they view coil as in a "coil SPRING" rather than a "Torsion coil spring"..

APHA: Very good point, Chappy. Thus.....the knees are married.

Thus....if the lead leg opens.....you bleed.....your 'coil spring' uncoils.

But of course.....the hitting spring is a torsion spring.

Check points 2 and 3 add more torsion to the hip socket separated leg/hip. They ADD torsion therefore they attach the hands to the rear hip.

With a coil spring....between the knees.....there is no way to attach the hands to that. So....you get lower body momentum....not a drive train. So....you have to push the hands to get any speed.....and therefore....there is no suddenness to the launch.

I get a kick out of guppy posting the bondsvbonds comparison clip.....as if he knows what it shows.

PTAF:Yes! Here is the thing that I could never get SB to acknowledge. I kept asking him, "what power source is being bled? WHERE?" He would not answer. I knew exactly WHERE he thought it was being bled. It was on the inside of the RHP, in the groin area. When my pelvis turns open, it gets tighter on the OUTSIDE of the RHPP. Guess what? When you use "the move" as they state it, it opens the hips, but it opens them from the inside of the RHPP and the tension does not build on the outside of the RHPP. The internally rotated thigh and femur with the rearward turning pelvis over that ball of the femur MUST be held with pinched scap or Lat and then transferred to the hands which allows it to be transferred to the barrel. THEY HAVE AND HAVE NEVER HAD BALL IN THE SOCKET SEPARATION FOLLOWED BY REAR SIDE RESISTANCE.