Rotational Hitting

[Spice of Life]

Very interesting reading, but has anyone come with strong scientific data to correlate what has been said. Ok I might have missed something since I did jump till the end. From what I gather video swing analysis is done with camcorder technology? Which is 25 - 30 frames per second. That is good enough for the pocket of Joe average I might think. But what about the 30 plus frame per second capture rates.
If you are able to follow this link Biomechanics of Youth Windmill Softball Pitching -- Werner et al. 33 (4): 552 -- American Journal of Sports Medicine you would see high speed cameras being used to capture windmill pitching action. No, it is not normal cinemagraphics but the technology used to do motion capture in games and computer animated movies.
This particular study used speeds up to 240Hz and the computer was left to do the maths....... Well if you have an institution that would want to put the question to rest they could fund the research. The above research was used to determine whether the forces generated by the windmill pitching action could cause harm to a youth female pitcher. The conclusion was that the same forces created by youth baseball pitchers existed in youth softball. And I mean within in same reference planes. So if baseball pitchers are at risk due to the reported cases of throwing related injuries, the young ladies have the same risk.
So does such research exist out there?

 

[TryIN2GetItRight]

What Have I learned

I have spent the past 2 hours reading through many of these posts and this is what I learned.

1. If you did not play at an elite level you do not know anything.
   
2. Looking at slow-mo video can't tell you anything unless you have hit a curve ball, a change-up and a fast ball at an elite level.
   
3. Epstein (even though he played at an elite level) knows nothing and has gotten it all wrong.
   
4. The one dad (POPS) that actually put his "DD" through the Epstein camp seems happy with the result.
   
5. Pushing off the rear heal actually mean pushing off the in-side ball of the foot?
   
6. You can post behind an anonymous name and be an Olympic star, a coach to all the greatest pros, or best friends with A-Rod, and you can do this while questioning others credentials.
   
7. DD means darling daughter.
   
8. A lot is one word - (alot)

Where do I go from here? Well I will continue to teach my kids what works for them and if you don't see them in MLB or team USA maybe they will just deliver your grandchildren in the maternity ward or teach them science in HS. Heck they can always log onto a site like this and call themselves TheHitDR or MissOlympic2016 and make unsubstantiated claims about everything.

 

[kls_hittingacademy]

Thank you, Amen!!!!!!

 

[Mark H]

I

[*]Epstein (even though he played at an elite level) knows nothing and has gotten it all wrong.:

Rule #1: Always compare anything anyone tells you to slow motion video of the best in the world. Including me.

[*]The one dad (POPS) that actually put his "DD" through the Epstein camp seems happy with the result.

:

Epstein will absolutely improve most youth fp hitters. Many who have taken his stuff to high levels will tell they hit a ceiling. Again, see rule #1.

As far as Epstein or Slaught or any other former high level player or famous guru, after awhile you notice many of them vehemently disagree with each other. The debate between Epstein and Slaught, to pick two well known gurus, at the NFCA conference left ZERO doubt they both think the other is way off base. The impromptu debate in front of college and gold coaches a few years back between Slaught and Englishbey at Spring Klein left no doubt they disagree on some things. So...how do you decide who is right and who is wrong between the gurus with outstanding resumes? It's a legit problem for the player or parent looking for help to improve. Again, I refer you to rule #1 and your own eyes though I do understand the frustration and eye glazing. Lots of rhetoric and fog. I suggest using rule #1 for a truth detector. It's not perfect for reasons that could be at least one thread of their own but it's the best test I've found.

 

[TryIN2GetItRight]

Mark

You seem very grounded and rational and I do appreciate your input. No claims to fame or greatness but the simple rational of see it for yourself. I do like that.

I have spent about 8 months researching hitting for my kids, (2 boys and one girl). It seems to me the best way to approach this is on a gradual basis.

What I have found is Epstein's system is easy, accessible and can get you started and give your kids terrific results. There are major elements that are lacking and hitting a ceiling is certainly one of the problems, but Englishbey and many others feature body movements that are far too complex for most 8 - 12 year olds. Hitting is an evolution. A hitter must take small steps to develop. Coordinating body movements and lack of strength are a major hurdle when working with kids. Through all of this you try to make sure the successes outweigh the failures and you try to keep it simple so they do not get frustrated and give up.

If we are talking about young adults - well, I will let you know what I think in 3 to 5 years when I jump that hurdle (God help me).

What I am trying to do for my kids is find Gurus (not a single Guru) that can take us through that path one step ahead of the rest. So far it seems to be working for us.

Thanks for your feedback - you seem to be a wise man.

 

[Hit Dr.24]

Epstein is truly a snake oil salesman and was blown away by Slugo at the NFCA because I was there and I know you were not!

 

[Mark H]

Mark

You seem very grounded and rational and I do appreciate your input. No claims to fame or greatness but the simple rational of see it for yourself. I do like that.

I have spent about 8 months researching hitting for my kids, (2 boys and one girl). It seems to me the best way to approach this is on a gradual basis.

What I have found is Epstein's system is easy, accessible and can get you started and give your kids terrific results. There are major elements that are lacking and hitting a ceiling is certainly one of the problems, but Englishbey and many others feature body movements that are far too complex for most 8 - 12 year olds. Hitting is an evolution. A hitter must take small steps to develop. Coordinating body movements and lack of strength are a major hurdle when working with kids. Through all of this you try to make sure the successes outweigh the failures and you try to keep it simple so they do not get frustrated and give up.

If we are talking about young adults - well, I will let you know what I think in 3 to 5 years when I jump that hurdle (God help me).

What I am trying to do for my kids is find Gurus (not a single Guru) that can take us through that path one step ahead of the rest. So far it seems to be working for us.

Thanks for your feedback - you seem to be a wise man.

Thank you for your kind words. A caution, though I agree with you on the simplicity of Epstein's system and no doubt it will improve most youth hitters, I don't consider what is learned foundational for the next step. However, if a kid is hitting as well as they want to at the highest level they aspire to, then that is, after all, the goal.

 

[Mark H]

Epstein is truly a snake oil salesman and was blown away by Slugo at the NFCA because I was there and I know you were not!

If you are speaking to me, that is true. However, someone very close to me was more closely involved in that debate than all but three.

I do agree Don is much closer than Mike. I think Don's understanding of the swing is two dimensional and that rock skipping analogy was a real bad idea but God bless him for getting Candrea and Enquist on tape saying the FP swing is pretty much the MLB swing.

 

[straightleg]

I mainly use the RVP thoughts on hitting. I like how englishbey does connection.

I have read and bought at least 20 books and video's and have epstien's, baker, smidth ect.

I even learned something from ifubuildit.

It is a process. And I am still learning.
I think the trick is not to get to complex in teaching it or talking about it.





Straightleg

 

[tom.guerry]

hit dr-

I have not seen them debate recently.

My opinion is that Slaught and Epstein are BOTH right and describing largely the same swing pattern.

Slaught focusses on the similarity to overhand throw which is a VERY powerful way to teach the high level MLB type swing. Arm action is king in organizing/controlling the body and is very similar to the overhand throw up to a point. if you can throw you can hit.

Epstein gets good results in spite of less (but still has some) arm action emphasis. To make Epstein work, it helps to be able to swing in and recognize the MLB pattern yourself.

To comminucate HOW this works remotely over the internet with only words and clips is more difficult, but not entirely impossible.

There is a unique sequence of arm/body action for the high level pattern in MLB and it involves torquing the handle of the bat (best understood by mankin) and lateral tilt (not turn, but tilt/resistance/"bypass" of the shoulder ROTATION - if shoulders actively rotate independent of torso uncoiling, then load is suboptimally "rushed") best understood by Epstein.

So all 3 of these authorites can gte good results in terms of accelerating learning of the high level MLB pattern because they get enough right and little enough wrong, even though individually, their method is more partial than comprehensive.

It works for Mankin because he emphasizes handle torque (active/starting early/persisting throughout swing).

It works for Epstein because he adds shoulder tilt as the key to the middle of the swing ("drop and tilt") while otherwise using Williams overall description (cock hips, cock hands, hips lead, slight upswing, top handwrist unbroken at contact) and while controlling connection (Mankin "chp") by bat on deltoid.

It works for slaught because he knows the MLB pattern inside and out (so does Epstein) and he focusses on the right arm action.

let me know what you find incompatible about what you hear from Epstein vs Slaught, and I will se if I can "reconcile" the perceived incompatibility.

The Nyman/PCR/W apporaches ARE incompatible with the MLB pattern because by definition the shoulders are rotated actively to turn the bat in the shoulder plane which (lack of upper body "resistance" which requires shoulder bypass/lateral tilt AND early handle torque) prevents keeping hands back and prevents quick bat acceleration and late trajectory adjustment as compared to the MLB pattern.