Revolutions of the Arm in Windmill - Inculding Pre-Motion??

[stemcellsrock]

Ok, so I was at a tournament this past weekend and witnessed what I would consider illegal pitching mechanics/motion when comparing to the "ASA Rules on Fastpitch Pitching". This was an ASA tournament.... I did ask lead umpire and was told it was allowed, but I want to see what everyone else interpretation of the rules are and if you think it was legal or illegal according to the ASA rules regarding Fastpitch Pitching Motion/Mechanics.

What is your opinion on the pitching motion below?

1. Pitcher steps onto pitching rubber, both feet touching rubber
2. Pitcher has ball in right hand, arm still, in front of right leg (resting on leg)
3. Pitcher swings back her pitching arm
4. Pitcher swings her pitching arm forward to meet her glove above her head (no pause but ball does enter glove)
5. Pitcher takes ball out of glove as she swings her pitching arm back behind body
6. Pitcher swings her pitching arm back forward and around for windmill & release

Attached are the rules for ASA on Fastpitch delivery....

My opinion is it is illegal due to the arm swing back before going to glove, then swinging back again once separating hands and then making full revolution for delivery... That would be passing the hip 3x.... in my opinion... What is yours?

 

[stemcellsrock]

How I think the pitcher could fix this, if it is actually illegal, would be just to eliminate the arm swing back before going into the glove... I have no problem with the 1 back-swing after leaving the glove, it is the back-swing before going into glove, then leaving glove and back-swinging again, then around into the windmill and release. 1 time past hip before entering glove, 2 time past hip on 2nd swing-back, 3rd time past hip on release.

She also could start with the ball behind the hip, swing up to glove and then back-swing and into windmill/release...

The issue I have is the 10 seconds she is holding the ball in front of hip/leg, then swinging back from there to a point almost 9:00, to swing back forward above the head, then swinging back to 9:00 before going into windmill/arm circle with release.

The ball is not in the glove for 1 sec, but close enough that I would never question that part of the motion for this pitcher.

If arm swings are allowed back and forth before going into the glove.... then it would benefit the pitcher as the batter is standing there watching the arm swing back and forth holding the ball before going into the glove, to see it leave the glove then swing back again before going into windmill for release. Just seems like it is a little much, especially when the rules say not more than 2x past the hip... But is that only talking about after the hands come together??

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Ok, so I was at a tournament this past weekend and witnessed what I would consider illegal pitching mechanics/motion when comparing to the "ASA Rules on Fastpitch Pitching". This was an ASA tournament.... I did ask lead umpire and was told it was allowed, but I want to see what everyone else interpretation of the rules are and if you think it was legal or illegal according to the ASA rules regarding Fastpitch Pitching Motion/Mechanics.

What is your opinion on the pitching motion below?

1. Pitcher steps onto pitching rubber, both feet touching rubber
2. Pitcher has ball in right hand, arm still, in front of right leg (resting on leg)
3. Pitcher swings back her pitching arm
4. Pitcher swings her pitching arm forward to meet her glove above her head (no pause but ball does enter glove)
5. Pitcher takes ball out of glove as she swings her pitching arm back behind body
6. Pitcher swings her pitching arm back forward and around for windmill & release

Attached are the rules for ASA on Fastpitch delivery....

My opinion is it is illegal due to the arm swing back before going to glove, then swinging back again once separating hands and then making full revolution for delivery... That would be passing the hip 3x.... in my opinion... What is yours?

I think the illegal act was that she did not have the hands together for "at least once second" per the rules (your bullet point #4). Seems like a very strange pre-pitch motion whether she gets away with it or not. Pitching is tough enough without incorporating all of this wasted movement into the mechanics.

 

[Jojo]

A long time ago at a state tournament there was pitcher swinging her arms all over the place, forwards, backwards, sideways you name it.
It was frusterated the hitters so we asked the umpire about it and he said during her entire routine of swinging her arms everywhere she had not presented yet. When she did present, she immediately went to the circle so it was legal.

We explained this to our hitters and that was all it took for them to stand there relaxed, get angry at her, wait for the presentation then smack the ball HARD!

 

[stemcellsrock]

So the hands together for "at least one second".... can they be swinging while they are together and still be counted as 1 sec??

The presentation of the ball, having hands separated when stepping onto pitching rubber, but I guess it does not say anything about swinging the arm all around before going into glove... So essentially a girl could stand there for up to 19 seconds swinging her arms around before bringing their hands together to start the pitch.... Definitely wasted movement/energy being used.

When I pointed out the 1 second point since the lead umpire said it was legal, she did not want to discuss... I was not arguing, just asking for an interpretation of the rules to explain why the swinging was legal and why no pause for 1 second was required if it said it in the rules....

But I will tell you, sometime you get great tournament umps, other times I think they forget this is Tournament Softball, not Rec and that you cannot give the players 10 warning for such things as interference before calling it. This group of umpires did baseball primarily and I had to pull out the ASA rule book to reenter a player who had only left the game 1 time. They told me there was no reentry....

Thanks for your view. It is interesting to see what others think. Maybe someone teaches this to their students, I do not, but maybe some do.... I am a big believer of conserving energy for the pitch, not the pre-motion routine!

 

[tojo]

From what you described, the pitch is legal. Any motion prior to ball and glove coming together is not part of the windmill motion. After going to presentation, rule 6.3.D says the pitcher may drop the arm to the side and to the rear before starting the windmill motion.

 

[halskinner]

Using pre-motions

The pitch is legal.

Once you have brought the ball into the glove, as long as you do not separate the hands and you keep the hands in front of you, you can move the hands all over the place and it is legal.

You must remember that once you receive the ball in the circle, you must deliver the pitch within 20 seconds. Pnce the hands are brought together, you must deliver the pitch within 10 seconds.

It is all considered part on the pre-motions until you separate the hands.

SOME premotions can get very elaborate and can be used against the batter to throw their timing off.

 

[stemcellsrock]

The pitch is legal.

Once you have brought the ball into the glove, as long as you do not separate the hands and you keep the hands in front of you, you can move the hands all over the place and it is legal.

You must remember that once you receive the ball in the circle, you must deliver the pitch within 20 seconds. Pnce the hands are brought together, you must deliver the pitch within 10 seconds.

It is all considered part on the pre-motions until you separate the hands.

SOME premotions can get very elaborate and can be used against the batter to throw their timing off.

I get once you bring it together... But before bringing it together you can swing back, then up to meet the glove and then right out of the glove back and then into the windmill circle....

The arm swing back seemed to be part of the motion since it was continuous..... I guess that is where I feel the rule is not clear....

I have not seen many pitch in this manner, only a few where they stand there taking the signal, then swing back then back forward to the glove with no pause then back out and into the windmill motion.

My question was the swing back before the going to the glove that was continuous, guess it is legal....

Thanks for helping break down the rules for me!! Sometimes I think they are worded in a way that can be misleading, taken out of context and sometimes just an opinion of what was meant.... LOL. My thing is the 2x pass the hip, that got me on this one!!

Thanks again everyone!

 

[shockcoach]

The Pitch does not start until the hands separate (Rule 6, Section 2). When I read this, the only thing I would have doubts about are ASA's 1-10 second rule for the hands being together (Rule 6, Section 1E). Without seeing it, I can't say it's illegal. But despite that, what you described is a legal pitch.