Jen Schroeder - The Packaged Deal

[marriard]

One thing I'm having trouble understanding is how the softball game is so much different than baseball that it requires a different approach for catchers, as has been mentioned in this thread.

In reality - really nothing - it is just that traditional beliefs are hard to challenge or be called into question if people have believed something for a long time. It is why you still hear 'throw the helmet off' being yelled at catchers every week or 'softball swing and baseball swings are every different' and so on. For most people the ability to change their mindsets or even being open to changing their mindsets is extremely difficult.

The best instructors are the ones who are willing to change what they teach over time and not live on past successes as they learn more and more and take the best of what others are teaching and incorporate it into what their own instruction and knowledge. I am fortunate to know a few - they are truly rare.

I will say that I have found some different priorities in softball for position players than in baseball. The skills still translate and still are executed the same but what is most important for each position and what high level skills are absolutely required in certain positions may change.

Catcher example - because of 60' bases in all ages of softball it is a higher priority that my catcher can throw out runners stealing two and are better than fielding bunts than in baseball because it happens more often and you have less time to execute. Another example: At SS we can live with slightly less range capabilities (because you are already so much closer and the ground needed to be covered laterally is smaller) but we value high reaction time and quick field/release on throws more because you don't have the time to gather yourself as you often as you can in baseball.

 

[chrispots]

Outstanding review!

I have a few questions...

The drill that you didn't like...was it because of the drill or the lack of form reinforcement? or both? We are on the same page when it comes to low rep\rapid fire drills I'm just trying to get a better sense of the drill...

We are also on the same page when it comes to form...so please do not read into any of my comments below...I trust you in your judgement...

Like I said in my initial post, I see both sides of the coin - form and athleticism - that's how we teach it with my team...

There was a good discussion about catchers needing to be the leader/quarterback on the field, which means getting the mask off, stepping up from behind the plate and giving loud, clear instructions to the team. It was noted that this - more than anything else - is what college coaches are looking for in a catcher. Be a leader. Be loud. Command with authority.

This to me is worth it's weight in gold...

Exactly, and that's my biggest issue with the instruction given at Jen's clinic. She stated clearly that for the most repetitive and high-speed drills, using proper blocking form didn't matter, it was all about speed and pushing the student past the point where they physically break down. For me, that's a deal-breaker, and is a quick way to build bad habits. I agree that fitness, agility, and strength are important for a catcher. However, these things can be built within the framework of maintaining proper mechanics. Speed doesn't do you a damn bit of good when you're sitting on the bench with a broken finger because your mechanics got sloppy.

To me...this is where the camp needs to reinforce fitness, agility and strength and give them some sort of handout regimen that they should be doing daily\every other day, etc in the off season.

After the experience of Jen's clinic, and pondering things a bit more, I realize I'm in exactly the same position I was a week ago - with more solid conviction. I think there is some real benefit to doing rapid-fire blocking drills with catchers to improve reflexes and push their fitness. However, those drills MUST maintain proper technique on EVERY rep. If the student is unable to perform the correct technique at full speed, they need to slow down and put more focus on building their muscle memory until the correct movement is automatic.

Your "pondering" is worth it's weight in gold as well...IMO neither Schoeder or Weaver are going to "make" your DD a star catcher...they are simply giving you the blueprint to build that "structure." This is where I think parents and coaches miss the boat...

Your complaint about not maintaining "form" is valid and is why I don't let my parents help out...3 good reps is better than 10 sloppy ones UNLESS the goal of the drill is SPEED...there are Kabota infield drills that follow that mantra...

Let me ask you 2 questions: Can the Jen Schro packaged deal teach proper form?

and...had there been more of a focus on form, would that have changed your review?

Merry Christmas!

CP

 

[Eric F]

Thanks for your comments, CP. It sounds like you and I are in agreement with this stuff.

Let me ask you 2 questions: Can the Jen Schro packaged deal teach proper form?

and...had there been more of a focus on form, would that have changed your review?

I think a big part of the challenge happens with the format of a 1-1/2 hour clinic being taught to 20+ kids. There's a lot to do with only a little time to do it, and by that limitation alone, some things will get sacrificed. It's not a fault, necessarily, but a reality of the situation.

Jen's program DOES teach blocking form. There is a section of the clinic where blocking form is taught (as I mentioned in my initial review) at slow speed, and a couple of stations in the rotation where the students can practice using their blocking in lower-stress drills. I just wish there was more focus on it throughout all the stations during the clinic, and more nit-picking of the details to help build muscle memory for the correct movements and positions. Those details are critical to keep players safe.

One of my concerns about Jen's approach is what happens with the throwing hand during blocking. She wants the throwing hand behind the mitt during a block, but doesn't like a stance where the throwing hand is behind the mitt. Because of this, the throwing hand MUST travel from behind the leg or hip through unprotected space to get behind the mitt during a block. IMO, this is a pretty important issue (IMO), and one where I agree strongly with NECC's methods.

My biggest issue with the clinic is the "quickness blocking" drills where (as clarified by Jen at the clinic) maintaining blocking form isn't important for the drill, and the intent is to push the students to the point where they fall apart physically. The intent for this drill is speed, so maybe she's following Kabota's lead on that one. This is a philosophical difference of approach that I have real trouble agreeing with at this time.

To answer your second question...Yes. A continuous focus on maintaining proper blocking movement and position during a high-rep/speed drill would have changed my opinion of that drill, and (possibly) my overall feeling about the clinic as we left the park that day. However, the drills were done as designed, and that's my conflict.

I want to be clear, I didn't think Jen's clinic was terrible. There was a lot of good, and I have tried to keep those things in balance in my initial review, and my subsequent comments. The way a few specific things are approached in the clinic are in strong conflict with the things I (currently) believe are most effective for catchers. It's because of those conflicts that I wouldn't take my DD back to one of Jen's clinics. It's a personal thing. Others may have a different experience.

As I have said before, I'm not so egotistical to think I'm always right. I'm ALWAYS open to learning new/better ways to approach anything if it will help my DD become a better player. However, it has to make sense to me before I will feed it to my DD. If someone can explain why high-rep drills that are intended to break down correct form are beneficial, I'm willing to listen.

 

[Eric F]

The drill that you didn't like...was it because of the drill or the lack of form reinforcement? or both? We are on the same page when it comes to low rep\rapid fire drills I'm just trying to get a better sense of the drill...

This was one of the drills used at Jen's clinic...https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=951831721511821&set=vb.504347389593592&type=3&theater

This is a slight different variation from what was done at the clinic (a line of 6 balls was used), but the same concept - speed over form...https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=817850274909967&set=vb.504347389593592&type=3&theater

 

[chrispots]

Thanks for your comments, CP. It sounds like you and I are in agreement with this stuff.



I think a big part of the challenge happens with the format of a 1-1/2 hour clinic being taught to 20+ kids. There's a lot to do with only a little time to do it, and by that limitation alone, some things will get sacrificed. It's not a fault, necessarily, but a reality of the situation.

Jen's program DOES teach blocking form. There is a section of the clinic where blocking form is taught (as I mentioned in my initial review) at slow speed, and a couple of stations in the rotation where the students can practice using their blocking in lower-stress drills. I just wish there was more focus on it throughout all the stations during the clinic, and more nit-picking of the details to help build muscle memory for the correct movements and positions. Those details are critical to keep players safe.

One of my concerns about Jen's approach is what happens with the throwing hand during blocking. She wants the throwing hand behind the mitt during a block, but doesn't like a stance where the throwing hand is behind the mitt. Because of this, the throwing hand MUST travel from behind the leg or hip through unprotected space to get behind the mitt during a block. IMO, this is a pretty important issue (IMO), and one where I agree strongly with NECC's methods.

My biggest issue with the clinic is the "quickness blocking" drills where (as clarified by Jen at the clinic) maintaining blocking form isn't important for the drill, and the intent is to push the students to the point where they fall apart physically. The intent for this drill is speed, so maybe she's following Kabota's lead on that one. This is a philosophical difference of approach that I have real trouble agreeing with at this time.

To answer your second question...Yes. A continuous focus on maintaining proper blocking movement and position during a high-rep/speed drill would have changed my opinion of that drill, and (possibly) my overall feeling about the clinic as we left the park that day. However, the drills were done as designed, and that's my conflict.

I want to be clear, I didn't think Jen's clinic was terrible. There was a lot of good, and I have tried to keep those things in balance in my initial review, and my subsequent comments. The way a few specific things are approached in the clinic are in strong conflict with the things I (currently) believe are most effective for catchers. It's because of those conflicts that I wouldn't take my DD back to one of Jen's clinics. It's a personal thing. Others may have a different experience.

As I have said before, I'm not so egotistical to think I'm always right. I'm ALWAYS open to learning new/better ways to approach anything if it will help my DD become a better player. However, it has to make sense to me before I will feed it to my DD. If someone can explain why high-rep drills that are intended to break down correct form are beneficial, I'm willing to listen.

The follow up to your review makes your review even that much better...thanks for all the time you put in this!

CP

 

[bcc69]

In regards to the throwing hand position during a block I don't feel there's any more danger in Jen's technique vs. NECC. A good catcher should have her throwing hand behind the mitt before the takes a swing. If you look at the video you posted you notice the quick and short movement of the hand from the side to behind the glove. The exposed distance is similar to having your hand behind the mitt to start.

A question to the NECC experts. How do you receive and frame and inside or outside pitch from the runners on squat? Does the throwing hand follow the mitt?

 

[Eric F]

In regards to the throwing hand position during a block I don't feel there's any more danger in Jen's technique vs. NECC. A good catcher should have her throwing hand behind the mitt before the takes a swing. If you look at the video you posted you notice the quick and short movement of the hand from the side to behind the glove. The exposed distance is similar to having your hand behind the mitt to start.

A question to the NECC experts. How do you receive and frame and inside or outside pitch from the runners on squat? Does the throwing hand follow the mitt?

If the throwing hand starts behind the leg or back before the beginning of the blocking movement (as advocated by Jen, and others), it must travel from that position around the thigh, to behind the mitt, as the mitt goes towards the ground. That travel is unprotected, and is happening as the ball is approaching the plate, leaving it vulnerable to a foul tip (batters swing at pitches in the dirt all the time). If the catcher starts their throwing hand behind the mitt in their (runners-on) receiving stance, the hand travels with the mitt to the ground, remaining protected the whole time.

While receiving in the runners-on stance, the throwing hand (kept in a fist, with the thumb tucked inside) is brought back to the chest protector, and will be in the "shadow" of the mitt. This also makes for shorter hand travel in a throwing situation.

Here's Maddie (10yo) working from a runner's-on position...

 

[Eric F]

For comparison, here she is in the same inning working from a no-runners position...

If you use the fence behind her as a landmark, you can see that her head elevation changes very little in her 3 different stances (signs, no-runners, runners-on). This is what we want to see.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

Eric, watching your little catcher beast really drives home the fact that our rec league is ridiculously rec, like pickup game rec. Damn. Nice vids, thanks for that.

 

[Eric F]

Eric, watching your little catcher beast really drives home the fact that our rec league is ridiculously rec, like pickup game rec. Damn. Nice vids, thanks for that.

Thanks! Keep in mind that these clips are from her Fall "Select" team, which is built from our league's All-Star teams. The teams we played were similar. That said, our team is blessed with 2 great catchers.