Jen Schroeder - The Packaged Deal

[chazbz1]

As far as the high squat, that is something I simply disagree with from testing it with my girls....We had each girl go through blocking, throwing, timed into their throwing positions, and LIVE framing. These were girls from the age of 8-18. Most notable: 1) not one girl's pop time was decreased, not one 2) we had 2 live pitchers, both complained about the high squat 3) girl with the high squat got beat in a blocking race every time.... girl's complained about pain on the tops of their knee caps and inner knees.

I'm left with the impression that Jen's girls were attempting something new with the "High Squat" or runner on stance and may not have had much time working with this stance. It's important to understand that when any new techniques is attempted, muscles are stretched and there may be some discomfort or pain as you get used to what you're doing. This can be compounded if you are not taught to utilize the technique correctly. Under these circumstances the results are not surprising. There were other comments about high stance compared to low stance effectiveness for blocking as well. As for pitchers complaining about the stance. If they had not seen it before, it is something unfamiliar and anything new will make a pitcher uncomfortable at first. Catchers attempting to catch live pitching in an unfamiliar stance will be adjusting and moving and will distract the pitcher as well. At my DD's 18U Northern Nationals in Michigan a few years back, the starting pitcher requested my DD to pitcher for her in the semi finals, even though it wasn't my DD's turn to catch in the rotation...

As for blocking from hi and low stances, one of my catchers had the unique experience to become very proficient at blocking from her runner on stance. She attended the Tennessee Vol's Jr. camp and after her first block the coaches pulled her out and brought her in front of the entire group. The coaches proceeded to have her block again in front of the entire class of catchers and explain that they wanted each and every catcher there to block the EXACT SAME WAY! (I got a phone call that night from a very excited and proud mom!) This same catcher went on to catch for a team that would not allow her to use her runner on stance so she spent the season blocking from her low stance. She got proficient at BOTH types of blocking. So I timed her dropping and blocking from a low hip stacne and her runner on stance.

Please see Catcher Myth #53 Catchers should set up in a low stance... for the full video, times and explanation. Long story short is that for someone proficient at both styles of blocking, blocking from the runner on stance is notably quicker. Not only are they quicker, they are better able to control where the ball goes after the block and be prepared to throw a stealing runner out. The other issue is throwing hand safety... Notice how the throwing hand is left exposed to a foul tip or errant ball while blocking from the low hip stance....

 

[Eric F]

Good input, Chaz. Thanks.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

Jen posted a video on FB yesterday of one of her students blocking - damn near an ideal NECC runners on stance except the throwing hand. She had nothing but praise for the student. I only point this out because it seems that there is less of a difference between the two camps than there might seem.

 

[Eric F]

Jen posted a video on FB yesterday of one of her students blocking - damn near an ideal NECC runners on stance except the throwing hand. She had nothing but praise for the student. I only point this out because it seems that there is less of a difference between the two camps than there might seem.

Based on my conversations with Jen, and the things she's posted in this thread, I don't get that feeling.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

Based on my conversations with Jen, and the things she's posted in this thread, I don't get that feeling.

Well, you'd certainly know more about it than I would!

Let me rephrase: it seems to me that the end products of the 2 approaches are very similar.

 

[Eric F]

Jen posted a video on FB yesterday of one of her students blocking - damn near an ideal NECC runners on stance except the throwing hand. She had nothing but praise for the student. I only point this out because it seems that there is less of a difference between the two camps than there might seem.

Here's the video...https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1009478852413774&set=vb.504347389593592&type=2&theater

The girl featured in the drill uses what we would consider a "runners-on" stance (thighs parallel with the ground). From this position, everything moves downward on each rep. Unfortunately, her throwing hand spends a lot of time flying around in unprotected space.

For contrast, just off the left edge of the frame, there is another girl working the same drill, but starts in a lower position. The first move of her hips is up before the block comes down.

As for the "runners-on" stance, Jen made it pretty clear in her clinic, and in our subsequent conversations that this is not a stance she believes is effective, and is not what she teaches. What we see in this video is not what Jen has described and demonstrated in my experience.

 

[C.K]

Based on my conversations with Jen, and the things she's posted in this thread, I don't get that feeling.

The concepts are what I called fundamentally different yesterday, because they teach two separate disciplines behind the plate. Sure 90% is the same but the devil is in the details on the last 10% and that is where it makes a difference. My daughter used to use both stances runners on and a standard , now its standard if she's catching a rise ball pitcher she'll be a little higher in her stance. I really do get why younger kids 12-14 are using the runners on stance (my kid used to also 11-13) it improved her pop times, throws, blocking. They just don't have the power yet, but that goes away when they get older.
The main job for a catcher is to receive the pitch correctly and that means working extra hard on the pitches that can go both ways. IMHO you can't do a good job catching drop anything from a high stance if its on the fringe. When the pitching gets good you'll be blocking 1 to 5 times a game at most for a drop ball pitcher but you'll be receiving 30+ drop pitches and a lot of them that catchers are going to have to work hard for if the pitcher is doing her job.
I can see the videos already coming so find me a All-American or even a big-10, pac, or sec catcher doing it. They're reasons they don't do it, some agree with those reasons and some don't. There is really no wrong or right way pick one and be proficient at it, as they say their's two ways to skin a cat.

 

[Eric F]

The concepts are what I called fundamentally different yesterday, because they teach two separate disciplines behind the plate. Sure 90% is the same but the devil is in the details on the last 10% and that is where it makes a difference. My daughter used to use both stances runners on and a standard , now its standard if she's catching a rise ball pitcher she'll be a little higher in her stance. I really do get why younger kids 12-14 are using the runners on stance (my kid used to also 11-13) it improved her pop times, throws, blocking. They just don't have the power yet, but that goes away when they get older.
The main job for a catcher is to receive the pitch correctly and that means working extra hard on the pitches that can go both ways. IMHO you can't do a good job catching drop anything from a high stance if its on the fringe. When the pitching gets good you'll be blocking 1 to 5 times a game at most for a drop ball pitcher but you'll be receiving 30+ drop pitches and a lot of them that catchers are going to have to work hard for if the pitcher is doing her job.
I can see the videos already coming so find me a All-American or even a big-10, pac, or sec catcher doing it. They're reasons they don't do it, some agree with those reasons and some don't. There is really no wrong or right way pick one and be proficient at it, as they say their's two ways to skin a cat.

I'm struggling to understand why catching a low pitch in a RO stance would be harder for a softball player than it is for a baseball player. Receiving effectively and keeping strikes looking like strikes is just as critical in both games. Pitches with lots of movement happen in both games.

I'm wondering if it's maybe your idea of what a RO stance should look like. I've seen lots of kids who don't have it quite right - torso too upright, frequently. Ideally, the elevation of the head should be pretty close in both a RO stance and a NR/low stance. The difference is in the width of the feet and the elevation of the hips. Reaching for a low pitch and/or shifting the hips behind the ball isn't hindered by a proper RO stance.

NECC has a couple of clients who will be the starting catchers on D1 teams this year. As soon as I find some video to share, I will. You might also want to check out chaz's post above about one of his clients.

 

[Greenmonsters]

The concepts are what I called fundamentally different yesterday, because they teach two separate disciplines behind the plate. Sure 90% is the same but the devil is in the details on the last 10% and that is where it makes a difference. My daughter used to use both stances runners on and a standard , now its standard if she's catching a rise ball pitcher she'll be a little higher in her stance. I really do get why younger kids 12-14 are using the runners on stance (my kid used to also 11-13) it improved her pop times, throws, blocking. They just don't have the power yet, but that goes away when they get older.
The main job for a catcher is to receive the pitch correctly and that means working extra hard on the pitches that can go both ways. IMHO you can't do a good job catching drop anything from a high stance if its on the fringe. When the pitching gets good you'll be blocking 1 to 5 times a game at most for a drop ball pitcher but you'll be receiving 30+ drop pitches and a lot of them that catchers are going to have to work hard for if the pitcher is doing her job.
I can see the videos already coming so find me a All-American or even a big-10, pac, or sec catcher doing it. They're reasons they don't do it, some agree with those reasons and some don't. There is really no wrong or right way pick one and be proficient at it, as they say their's two ways to skin a cat.

C.K. - why not model the best MLB catchers?

 

[chazbz1]

I'm afraid I have to comment again. This time let's focus on throw downs....

As far as the high squat, that is something I simply disagree with from testing it with my girls....We had each girl go through blocking, throwing, timed into their throwing positions, and LIVE framing. These were girls from the age of 8-18. Most notable: 1) not one girl's pop time was decreased, not one 2)

Once again from Jennifer's description, it sounds as though these are her catchers trying out the high-hip runner on stance and more than likely aren't proficient with throwing out of this stance. Yet they have the same pop times as those in a low-hip squat stance. Once they become proficient, it would be reasonable to assume the these girls would be able to throw faster than when in the low hip squat stance. Even if they weren't any faster and pop times remained equal.... you have to consider the catcher's safety. The pictures below are of 2 catchers. The first of a catcher at at JS clinic (Check her stance by the way) practicing a fast hands drill for throw downs. Note the position of her throwing hand as she receives it. Notice the outstretched fingers! Think about the damage a 7 ounce (Almost a half pound) foul tipped ball traveling at 50-80 mph could do to those fingers on impact! Regrettably, I can report of 3 known hand injuries in the Kansas City area this past summer receiving pitches in this manner. A catcher simply cannot react to a foul tipped pitch and get their hand out of the altered ball path. One of the injuries resulted in a broken finger, another a broken finger and torn ligaments.



The catcher below is one our ACC students (Who will be attending a prominent D1 college next year btw) in game conditions. She is utilizing her high hip runner on stance and protects her throwing hand behind her glove. (I have yet to see a serious injury from any catcher utilizing this stance and hand position proficiently) There are a few more details to this type of stance, receiving and throw downs. The bottom line for our catchers is that after the pitch sign is given, the pitcher should never see their throwing hand again until the ball is put in play or received in their glove.



So even if the pop times are exactly the same.... Wouldn't it be smarter to use the SAFER METHOD?! (Seems like a no-brainer) If your catcher doesn't protect their throwing hand when they receive pitches, they will have their hand hit at least once in their career. It's not a matter of if... it's simply a matter of when and how serious the injury is. It could be the week or day before they are going to the big exposure tournament.... Now they are in cast on the bench instead of being seen by college coaches. It's happened. One of the hand injuries noted above was at one of my catcher's HS tryouts. The other girl damaged her hand severely enough to not play the entire school season. My freshman catcher ended up starting varsity because one of her main competitors injured herself with risky receiving practices.

There are many ways to catch a ball in a game... to throw and to block it. We teach the methods we teach because they are the most efficient and safest known. I will be attending a local clinic this weekend to see if I can learn a safer more efficient method. Coaches like Jay and myself are CONSTANTLY looking for a better, safer, more effective way to skin that "cat".