Jen Schroeder - The Packaged Deal

[#10]

This has been the most interesting thread I've read on DFP - thanks to all who have contributed thus far!

My DD is a first year 14U "A" travel ball catcher who is continuously refining her techniques. We have come up primarily using the NECC methodology, and we know a few kids who currently take lessons from Jen Schro. DD's role model/idol, who studied with Schro and we've known since DD was ten, is a current SEC catcher who made All-American as a freshman.

What I've come to realize in working with my daughter (YMMV) is that a hybrid application of both schools of thought provides the best game day execution on the dirt. For example, the NECC runners-on stance was what we used exclusively through 12U, because it enabled a quick bounce out of stance to throw out base runners. As she started going through her growth spurt over the summer, we started working on throwing down to second "from the knees" without bouncing out of stance, which in our case took two full strides away from the base runner when executed properly. What we found out through trial, error and sweat equity was that the high runners-on stance was a hindrance, since the right foot plant, leg drive and torso rotation required to stick the throw "in crouch" was better served by staying low.

Regarding dropping and blocking, I haven't seen any difference in reaction time between low stance vs. high stance. As DD keeps growing, her strength increases, and what has become apparent is that the quickness in kicking her feet back behind her is the best gauge for effectively blocking pitches in the dirt. In our case, I think that DD's increasing physicality has rendered the runners-on stance obsolete.

The rapid-fire drill that Eric F didn't like, I don't like, either. DD has attended clinics where that drill has been done, and we've had similar conversations on maintaining proper form vs. doing the drill as it's intended. I'm all about drills that replicate game day scenarios. I believe that this type of drill is beneficial for the X-box set, but DD takes speed and agility at her batting facility, so I'd rather spend that time working on framing!

I think comparisons to MLB catchers are irrelevant - they're playing a different game, for Pete's sake! If they were gaming on a softball diamond, I'm pretty sure they'd adjust their technique accordingly to maximize their execution.

Ultimately, what provides the best playmaking is what we'll use, and we'll pilfer it from anybody and everybody! And that's my two cents, Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[guero_gordo]

I don't know enough to address the rest, but I can at least speak to this idea. If you watch video of both, you can see that starting from the low squat requires an upward movement before dropping to the block position, where the NECC runners on stance allows the catcher to simply drop straight down. That's the idea, anyway. Having gone to the web to watch some of Jen's videos, and having purchased and watched (and re-watched) the NECC vids, there is much less difference between Jen's regular stance (when they're working the drills) and the NECC runner's on stance than there is between Jen's regular and the NECC no runners stance. I think I understand what Eric is saying about the high squat he was seeing.

Not sure what Jen teaches, but typically this can also be apples and oranges also because blocking techniques are different: rolling forward vs. driving back.
Also complicated because the ball is gaining on you faster when you move forward vs. driving back, so what happens within that "time to position" isn't the same.

 

[Jen Schro]

Nice of JSchro to come on here and post. I wholeheartedly support the mental mindset and attitude she is trying to train and instill in her catchers and the way she works to push and develop their fitness and mental confidence; however, I see little substance as far as justifying the mechanics she supports and teaches other than I was successful with them so that's what I teach and its led those students to success as well. The Hansen principle can be and, IMO should be, applied to catching just the same as it is with hitting or an other specific aspect of any sport - look at video of how the best do it and use that as your model. IMO the best catchers play MLB baseball and not female fastpitch SB, at least to date. IMO, JSchro herself and many catchers in the televised WCWS games use mechanics that don't match up with the best. IMO, those same catchers could be even more successful than they are/were if they used better mechanics.

IMO, the best instructors can provide a detailed and defensible explanation of why they teach what they do and why they don't teach the way others do and are open-minded about changing when another way is proven superior. If Jen doesn't want to go into detail why the mechanics she teaches are superior to those taught by NECC, I'd respect her much more for simply stating that she doesn't have the time or inclination to do that on DFP, rather than justifying them by pointing out her own and her students' successes. That's a really poor answer IMO because it refuses to acknowledge that there is a higher level that can be achieved, as the fact is that girls FP catcher-specific training historically has been non-existent to very limited and typically has led to a de facto artificial ceiling on female catcher development and progress. Admittedly, I don't buy buy that physical differences between males and females and the scale of the BB/FP games merit significantly different mechanical approaches, so my bottom line question would be why would I want my DD to learn JSchro mechanics when it takes no more effort to learn Posey or Lucroy mechanics?

PS - In the interest of full disclosure, I write this from the perspective of a former college BB catcher who has been in search of the best FP SB catcher training possible over the last 10 years for my DD who is a D3 college catcher who has worked with NECC.

It seems like quite possibly we simply measure "high levels" differently- and that's okay. We are each entitled to do so. Just as a teacher measures student's academic ability by a GPA, or a college by an SAT score, one of my most concrete measurables as a coach is what my catchers accomplish at the elite level of softball. To me this includes: PGF National Championships, NCAA Championships, National Team Programs (aka Team USA) & college commitments.

In 2014 I was fortunate to have trained the 12u, 14u, 18u Platinum & 18 Premier National Championship catchers. The NCAA D1 Championship Catcher, 3 different countries catcher's who competed in the World Championships in Holland & sent 16 catchers to D1 programs this Fall. Now, is this saying I am completely content, absolutely not. And, if I was I would be completely ignorant. But, I am saying my catcher's have dominated at the "highest levels" in all of Fastpitch, which it was my understanding was the topic of this board.

Again, if you don't believe those are accurate measurables of the "highest level" of the catching position, that is fine, but at this point in my coaching career, I do & that is something I am incredibly proud of.

My goals are, and will continue to be to empower the female youth of softball, specifically catchers, so that they will continue to dominate on the largest & most elite stages in softball.

Merry Christmas everyone, I can't believe I have posted 3 times

 

[WARRIORMIKE]

Jen.

It would be nice for your dad to post up on the hitting sections. Tell him the Tomark asked! Lol

 

[4 girl's dad]

Thanks J Schroe for taking the time to reply! Please come by anytime! You are always welcome here.

 

[Eric F]

My goals are, and will continue to be to empower the female youth of softball, specifically catchers, so that they will continue to dominate on the largest & most elite stages in softball.

Mechanical differences aside, this ^, above everything else, is the single most important thing in what you do, and I deeply respect you for your efforts in that regard.

Cheers!

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

Not sure what Jen teaches, but typically this can also be apples and oranges also because blocking techniques are different: rolling forward vs. driving back.
Also complicated because the ball is gaining on you faster when you move forward vs. driving back, so what happens within that "time to position" isn't the same.

I get what "rolling forward" is (I think), but not sure I understand what "driving back" is supposed to be? I think, though, that even with different techniques the only metric that matters is how fast you can get to the blocking position from the time the decision is made to do so. Rolling or falling forward puts you closer to the ball, but I'm not convinced that it's a significant amount (without seeing the math, anyway), and it doesn't affect how much time it takes to get into blocking position regardless - that time is, or should be measured from the decision point.

 

[Eric F]

I get what "rolling forward" is (I think), but not sure I understand what "driving back" is supposed to be? I think, though, that even with different techniques the only metric that matters is how fast you can get to the blocking position from the time the decision is made to do so. Rolling or falling forward puts you closer to the ball, but I'm not convinced that it's a significant amount (without seeing the math, anyway), and it doesn't affect how much time it takes to get into blocking position regardless - that time is, or should be measured from the decision point.

Rolling or falling forward to block is a problem because it pushes the ball further away as it bounces off the chest protector. Whether it's Jen's teaching from a low squat position, or NECC's teaching from a "runner's-on" position, the movement should be kicking the feet rearward to bring the chest protector down and over the ball.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Thank you Jen for a very mature and well-thought out response, even though I am not in complete agreement. You rightly should be proud of what you accomplished during your playing days and even more so of what your students have accomplished with your help. My primary point is that regardless of how successful your catchers are, there are mechanical limitations that are preventing them from being even better. If you aren't familiar with NECC or their teachings I'd be surprised, but if that is the case, PM me and I'd be happy to loan you my copy of their Coaches Guide to Training Catchers DVD, which IMO is the catcher's video bible.

Here's to hoping that your post count will rise past 3, but if it doesn't you have my sincere thanks for sharing your thoughts and insights with this group of catching fanatics.

PS Although our DD's play FP, and this board is devoted to FP softball, both in name and substance, many here strongly believe in modeling our young ballplayers after the best there are in the game (regardless of gender). IMO, there is no reason why at some point in the future all those models can't and won't be female ballplayers.

It seems like quite possibly we simply measure "high levels" differently- and that's okay. We are each entitled to do so. Just as a teacher measures student's academic ability by a GPA, or a college by an SAT score, one of my most concrete measurables as a coach is what my catchers accomplish at the elite level of softball. To me this includes: PGF National Championships, NCAA Championships, National Team Programs (aka Team USA) & college commitments.

In 2014 I was fortunate to have trained the 12u, 14u, 18u Platinum & 18 Premier National Championship catchers. The NCAA D1 Championship Catcher, 3 different countries catcher's who competed in the World Championships in Holland & sent 16 catchers to D1 programs this Fall. Now, is this saying I am completely content, absolutely not. And, if I was I would be completely ignorant. But, I am saying my catcher's have dominated at the "highest levels" in all of Fastpitch, which it was my understanding was the topic of this board.

Again, if you don't believe those are accurate measurables of the "highest level" of the catching position, that is fine, but at this point in my coaching career, I do & that is something I am incredibly proud of.

My goals are, and will continue to be to empower the female youth of softball, specifically catchers, so that they will continue to dominate on the largest & most elite stages in softball.

Merry Christmas everyone, I can't believe I have posted 3 times

 

[Eric F]

I know the NECC die hards will tell you that blocking is faster also. I don't see how that's possible since you have to drop further.

Go to 6:33 on the following video...


We can clearly see how the hips move up before the block goes down. The "runners-on" stance puts the hips in the higher position before the pitch. What I see is that the distance the hips have to travel to execute a block is actually shorter from a "runners-on" position, and is gravity-assisted for the whole movement. Instead of up-to-go-down, it's just down.

One thing I'm having trouble understanding is how the softball game is so much different than baseball that it requires a different approach for catchers, as has been mentioned in this thread. I would appreciate some input (examples, scenarios, etc.) on that issue from those who agree with that viewpoint. How/why/what makes it so different that the same techniques aren't applicable for both games?

The reality is, what works best on the field for your player is the right decision. If there is a way to help our DDs/students be more effective, it's worth exploring. Sometimes that means trying it more than once.