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Illegal Pitch

Jun 27, 2008
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After watching USA's Monica Abbott being called for 3 illegal pitches last night during their game against Canada, I began watching other pitchers from the Olympics.

I noticed during the China / Australia game that the Chinese pitcher begins her wind up by putting her hands over her head and then going into the wind up, is this not illegal as well? Maybe ASA and ISF rules are different but I know in ASA that the pitcher can not have the ball move past the head more than once during the wind up?

When we first started our 10u team, this was a huge issue for one of our pitchers as she pitched pretty much exactly like the Chinese pitcher does.

Here is a link for that game
China vs Australia
 

halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,689
0
Yeah, it's an IP

After watching USA's Monica Abbott being called for 3 illegal pitches last night during their game against Canada, I began watching other pitchers from the Olympics.

I noticed during the China / Australia game that the Chinese pitcher begins her wind up by putting her hands over her head and then going into the wind up, is this not illegal as well? Maybe ASA and ISF rules are different but I know in ASA that the pitcher can not have the ball move past the head more than once during the wind up?

When we first started our 10u team, this was a huge issue for one of our pitchers as she pitched pretty much exactly like the Chinese pitcher does.

Here is a link for that game
China vs Australia
I didn't see the game last night.

But, to bring your hands together in front and then bring them up past 12:00, that is bringing the ball from front to rear. To then bring it from that point forward past 12:00, that is bringing the ball from the rear to the front and that is deemed forward motion, illegal pitch.

You are allowed to 'drop the hand down and to the rear'. There is no written allowance to raise the hand up and to the rear.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
5,924
83
Dallas, Texas
When it doubt, read a map...or read the rules.


ASA Rule 6, Section 3, D:

A pitcher may not make two revolutions of the arm on the windmill pitch. A pitcher may drop her hands to the side and to the rear before starting the windmill motion.


There is nothing in the rules about moving the arm past the head twice.
 

halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,689
0
When it doubt, read a map...or read the rules.


ASA Rule 6, Section 3, D:

A pitcher may not make two revolutions of the arm on the windmill pitch. A pitcher may drop her hands to the side and to the rear before starting the windmill motion.


There is nothing in the rules about moving the arm past the head twice.
For any motion or action to be legal, there must be a written 'allowance' for it to be so. If there is not a written allowance for it to be done legally, IP.


Here is a common error that most of the time does not get called;

In the ASA rulebook for fastpitch pitching regulations; There is no written allowance for a pitcher to bring the ball back and take it behind her back (In other words bring it back out of view of the umpire and batter).

However, in the Modified Pitch regulations, there IS a written allowance (a written rule) that allows the pitcher to do that. But, since there is NO such similar written allowance in fastpitch, it would be an illegal pitch in fastpitch play.

Not often I have seen a pitcher do that and they are usally very young, the ones I have seen anyway. But, if the blue wanted to get picky (especially if it an older pitcher) they would be justified in calling an IP, at least in my opinion.
 
Jun 2, 2008
62
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I'm not sure I understand. In ASA, if a pitcher starts her windup by taking the ball straight back behind her, in other words, has a back swing, that could be called IP?
 

halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,689
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I'm not sure I understand. In ASA, if a pitcher starts her windup by taking the ball straight back behind her, in other words, has a back swing, that could be called IP?
A backswing (dropping the hand down and to the rear) is legal. Bringing the ball backwards and bringing it BEHIND the back, is technically illegal but I have never seen it called.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
5,924
83
Dallas, Texas
Hal, you're wrong. Modified fastpitch has several rules stating the specific pitching motion that is allowable. The rules are there to reduce the speed of the pitches. So, of course, it is going to be more details about what is and is not legal in modified fastpitch. It doesn't have anything to do with what is legal in regular fastpitch.
 

halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,689
0
Hal, you're wrong. Modified fastpitch has several rules stating the specific pitching motion that is allowable. The rules are there to reduce the speed of the pitches. So, of course, it is going to be more details about what is and is not legal in modified fastpitch. It doesn't have anything to do with what is legal in regular fastpitch.
Hi Sluggers.

Yes, it is two separate sets of rules.

Here is what the rulebooks contain in the pitching regulations;

1. What actions are specifically required.
2. What actions are NOT specifically required but ARE allowed.
3. What actions are specifically NOT allowed.


I have illustrated that difference to show how the organizations write the pitching regulations.

Bringing the ball backwards and behind the back, in MP, falls under #2.

Bringing the ball backwards and behind the back, in FP, is not allowed. If it was allowed, there would be a written allowance, just like in MP.

The reason any rule is in place has absolutely no bearing on this illustration.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
5,924
83
Dallas, Texas
I've never quite figured out why I argue softball rules. It is a pretty silly past time, but I hate when people just make stuff up without looking at the rules. Of course, for a number of people in the softball community, reading is a pretty difficult task.

Section 6-4 of the MFP rules says, "The pitcher may take the ball behind her back **ON THE BACK SWING**". You carefully left out mentioning the "on the back swing" part of the rule, because that makes your whole argument bull manure. The pitcher is not taking the ball behind her head on her back swing, so there is no specific allowance of the pitcher doing that in MFP.

None of this matters anyway, since a pitch starts "when one hand is taken off the ball after the hands have been placed together". (Section 6-2 of both the MFP and FP rules) The Chinese pitcher clearly has her hands together when she takes the ball "behind her head", and therefore the pitch has not started.
 

halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,689
0
I've never quite figured out why I argue softball rules. It is a pretty silly past time, but I hate when people just make stuff up without looking at the rules. Of course, for a number of people in the softball community, reading is a pretty difficult task.

Section 6-4 of the MFP rules says, "The pitcher may take the ball behind her back **ON THE BACK SWING**". You carefully left out mentioning the "on the back swing" part of the rule, because that makes your whole argument bull manure. The pitcher is not taking the ball behind her head on her back swing, so there is no specific allowance of the pitcher doing that in MFP.

None of this matters anyway, since a pitch starts "when one hand is taken off the ball after the hands have been placed together". (Section 6-2 of both the MFP and FP rules) The Chinese pitcher clearly has her hands together when she takes the ball "behind her head", and therefore the pitch has not started.
In Modified pitch, the pitcher is not allowed to make a windmill circle.

Therefore, the ONLY time a pitcher could POSSIBLY bring the ball behind their back is on the backswing AFTER the hands have seperated and the pitch has started.

You put people down and say they dont know how to read. yet you seem to be able to read BUT YOU DONT COMPREHEND ALOT! That's sad.

In the FP rules it says the pitcher is allowed to drop the hand 'down and to the rear'. I hope you csan understand the rules enough to agree it says that. Down is 6:00, one of the points that seperate the front from the rear. That makes the other defining line 12:00.

A reasonably intelligent person would now say that it is obvious the association notes a difference between having the ball in front or in the rear, they do make that denotation there.

The pitcher must bring the hands together in front. The only allowance made for bringing the ball to the rear is by dropping it down and to the rear before starting their forward motion. If a pitcher was allowed to bring the ball 'up and to the rear' before starting their forward motion there would ALSO be a written allowance for it, EVEN IF IT IS DONE DURING THE PRE-MOTIONS. There is not an allowance for that in the rulebook.

When the ball is brought from the front to the rear and then to the front, that is considered a revolution of the arm. In the case of the pitcher in question; She starts with the ball in front, brings it up and past 12:00 thereby bringing it to the rear, reverses that motion and brings it forward past 12:00. She has brought the ball from front, to the rear and back to the front.

Please quote me from the rulebook where it says a pitcher is allowed to bring the ball 'up and to the rear', either in pre-motions or after the hands have seperated. Remember now, if it was legal to do there would be a written allowance.

Now please plant that in YOUR bull manure and see if it grows.
 

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