Does the riseball really rise???
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Whether it rises or not, it still is a pretty amazing pitch.
You look at the fastball motion, and it is a nice, simple parabola--which is what you would expect from any kind of projectile motion. The ball reaches its maximum height and then starts falling. We see this kind of motion everywhere.
On the other hand, the riseball never starts dropping during the pitch. It gets to its maximum height and stays there, totally opposite of what we expect.
I've heard that riseballs don't work well in the elite levels of the men's game. I also know Fernandez said she loved hitting against riseball pitchers. Any comments on this?
You look at the fastball motion, and it is a nice, simple parabola--which is what you would expect from any kind of projectile motion. The ball reaches its maximum height and then starts falling. We see this kind of motion everywhere.
On the other hand, the riseball never starts dropping during the pitch. It gets to its maximum height and stays there, totally opposite of what we expect.
I've heard that riseballs don't work well in the elite levels of the men's game. I also know Fernandez said she loved hitting against riseball pitchers. Any comments on this?
Don't tell Don Sarno that the rise ball is not effective that is the pitch that won all the world games and got him into the hall of fame. I was not a good rise ball pitcher I used it to get the batters eyes to move. But when I pitched there were many men who could get that pitch to move up and in and up and away and would get a lot of strike outs or pop ups.
Went to a clinic with Dave Paetkau and Bill Hillhouse. Dave showed clips of the riseball as it progressed to the plate. It just doesn't drop as much as a fastball. So know it doesn't rise. It's still tough to catch one thrown by Bill.
- Aug 21, 2008
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There are several problems with this age old debate and I'm not going to offer an opinion except the following:
1. Most pitchers who've been used in examples are not using mechanics which allow for backspin pitchers. NO, sorry.. Bob Gibson throwing a 4 seam fastball does not count. He is not able to get the right amount of spin on the ball and release at an angle which will hold against gravity. It merely looks like it's going up because he started on a hill and still threw 'upward'. This is same argument that the 'nay sayers' use for this debate in softball... "it's thrown at an angle and APPEARS to go up because it doesn't go down as fast".
2. When it comes to experts this debate is not unlike anything that claims to be scientific. No 2 people or experts agree. Your professor at UCLA says it cannot happen, my professor at Penn State says it could happen. Who's right? This is not unlike other debates in the science world.
3. "Show me video!" is what some will yell. Ok, then what? If I throw one and it does 'curve upward' the skeptics will claim it was faked. So we're back to square one. Take the Bigfoot argument for example. The people who believe in Bigfoot have pictures, foot prints, video, etc. Yet, the skeptics claim all that to be circumstantial and fake. Is there a way to win that? Try convincing someone who claims to have seen Bigfoot that it was their imagination. It's just as impossible to have that person convince a skeptic that it actually happened.
4. My biggest problem with this 'debate' is that I think people have a tendency to get the wrong idea about the riseball. Think of a riseball like a jet airplane for just a moment. With enough speed, wind resistance and aerodynamics... a plane can get off the ground and sustain flight. But, when it runs out of fuel and/or loses it's speed, the plane will go down. In every case of "stromotion' riseballs... it shows the ball losing it's speed and altitude at the end of the pitch. Would that not seem logical that this would occur? Of course it would. Anything that goes up will come down, no? Sure, anyone can throw a ball fast enough regardless of the spin on the ball and it will stay up for a length of time! So, it's no surprise that the pitch falls at the end. Even DROPBALLS which don't move and stay flat will EVENTUALLY go down.
So, the point is, regardless of which camp you're in (if it goes up or not) NOBODY in their right mind should think that the ball will just keep going up and up and up. Eventually, like the airplane, it will run out of gas and have to go down.
So, does it go up? It would appear to be irrelevant. If the mind is being fooled by the ball 'dropping less' then it's irrelevant whether it curves upward or not. But would it also be irrelevant how it's gripped and what spin is used? If all that's needed is an angled high pitch, why worry about grips and spin? I can throw a drop ball at a fast enough speed at an upward angle that it will get the catcher before it goes down. SO, why change the spin of the ball? Why not just alter my angle of the pitch? Maybe the answer is because when it's thrown correctly (with proper mechanics) it should do more than just 'drop less'. Then again, what do I know.
1. Most pitchers who've been used in examples are not using mechanics which allow for backspin pitchers. NO, sorry.. Bob Gibson throwing a 4 seam fastball does not count. He is not able to get the right amount of spin on the ball and release at an angle which will hold against gravity. It merely looks like it's going up because he started on a hill and still threw 'upward'. This is same argument that the 'nay sayers' use for this debate in softball... "it's thrown at an angle and APPEARS to go up because it doesn't go down as fast".
2. When it comes to experts this debate is not unlike anything that claims to be scientific. No 2 people or experts agree. Your professor at UCLA says it cannot happen, my professor at Penn State says it could happen. Who's right? This is not unlike other debates in the science world.
3. "Show me video!" is what some will yell. Ok, then what? If I throw one and it does 'curve upward' the skeptics will claim it was faked. So we're back to square one. Take the Bigfoot argument for example. The people who believe in Bigfoot have pictures, foot prints, video, etc. Yet, the skeptics claim all that to be circumstantial and fake. Is there a way to win that? Try convincing someone who claims to have seen Bigfoot that it was their imagination. It's just as impossible to have that person convince a skeptic that it actually happened.
4. My biggest problem with this 'debate' is that I think people have a tendency to get the wrong idea about the riseball. Think of a riseball like a jet airplane for just a moment. With enough speed, wind resistance and aerodynamics... a plane can get off the ground and sustain flight. But, when it runs out of fuel and/or loses it's speed, the plane will go down. In every case of "stromotion' riseballs... it shows the ball losing it's speed and altitude at the end of the pitch. Would that not seem logical that this would occur? Of course it would. Anything that goes up will come down, no? Sure, anyone can throw a ball fast enough regardless of the spin on the ball and it will stay up for a length of time! So, it's no surprise that the pitch falls at the end. Even DROPBALLS which don't move and stay flat will EVENTUALLY go down.
So, the point is, regardless of which camp you're in (if it goes up or not) NOBODY in their right mind should think that the ball will just keep going up and up and up. Eventually, like the airplane, it will run out of gas and have to go down.
So, does it go up? It would appear to be irrelevant. If the mind is being fooled by the ball 'dropping less' then it's irrelevant whether it curves upward or not. But would it also be irrelevant how it's gripped and what spin is used? If all that's needed is an angled high pitch, why worry about grips and spin? I can throw a drop ball at a fast enough speed at an upward angle that it will get the catcher before it goes down. SO, why change the spin of the ball? Why not just alter my angle of the pitch? Maybe the answer is because when it's thrown correctly (with proper mechanics) it should do more than just 'drop less'. Then again, what do I know.
So the real question is, where do you stand on the Bigfoot debate?
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Ok, lets get the debate on a plane where people can benefit!
Here in order are my keys to throwing a good riseball that finishes in the zone. Feel free to have at it:
1) Speed (faster the speed--less time for gravity to affect)
2) Release point (lower release point---allows more release angle)
3) Release angle (must have enough angle to finish at the top of the zone for maximum illusion)
4) Spin Directional Orientation (optimum is 12/6)
5) Spin Rate (elite females spin RB at 30+ RPS)
6) Seam Orientation (4 seams spinning backwards gets more turbulence thus more lift)
Here in order are my keys to throwing a good riseball that finishes in the zone. Feel free to have at it:
1) Speed (faster the speed--less time for gravity to affect)
2) Release point (lower release point---allows more release angle)
3) Release angle (must have enough angle to finish at the top of the zone for maximum illusion)
4) Spin Directional Orientation (optimum is 12/6)
5) Spin Rate (elite females spin RB at 30+ RPS)
6) Seam Orientation (4 seams spinning backwards gets more turbulence thus more lift)
Bill,
No one in their right mind would argue with a word you wrote. The disagreement comes from the whackos who INSIST that the riseball 'jumps' or 'hops' as it gets close to the plate!
Rick,
I would put the factors in this order:
1) Release angle (no spin or speed can overcome a poor release angle)
2) Speed (for the reason you noted)
3) Seam Orientation (must use the big, fat seams )
4) Spin rate (the more RPM's the better)
5) Spin Directional Orientation (I have this lower than you because most pitchers won't reach 12/6)
Keith
No one in their right mind would argue with a word you wrote. The disagreement comes from the whackos who INSIST that the riseball 'jumps' or 'hops' as it gets close to the plate!
Rick,
I would put the factors in this order:
1) Release angle (no spin or speed can overcome a poor release angle)
2) Speed (for the reason you noted)
3) Seam Orientation (must use the big, fat seams )
4) Spin rate (the more RPM's the better)
5) Spin Directional Orientation (I have this lower than you because most pitchers won't reach 12/6)
Keith
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,379
- 113
Keith
Ahhh, but you've again fallen into the trap! You insist that it does not "jump" or hop based off what experience? You say it's not PHYSICALLY possible.. but like any defense attorney, I could find an army of witnesses and experts to say it IS possible. Ultimately, someone is right and someone is wrong. You may have watched Abbott throw but, I contend she does not throw this based off her mechanics. For certain, a high pitch thrown 70mph with bullet spin is still hard to hit and can fool the eye. But that's still not a riseball by my definition, and I realize I'm a little more picky than most.
Rick, your order of importance: would you not say #4 and #6 are redundant?
Ahhh, but you've again fallen into the trap! You insist that it does not "jump" or hop based off what experience? You say it's not PHYSICALLY possible.. but like any defense attorney, I could find an army of witnesses and experts to say it IS possible. Ultimately, someone is right and someone is wrong. You may have watched Abbott throw but, I contend she does not throw this based off her mechanics. For certain, a high pitch thrown 70mph with bullet spin is still hard to hit and can fool the eye. But that's still not a riseball by my definition, and I realize I'm a little more picky than most.
Rick, your order of importance: would you not say #4 and #6 are redundant?
halskinner
Banned
- May 7, 2008
- 2,659
- 0
Bill,
Save your typing fingers man. I have been debatiing this for several years now with people on softball boards.
If they have never caught one that jumps, been struck out by one that jumps or never pitched one that worked, THEY WILL NEVER BELIEVE IT CAN BE DONE.
They see all these youngsters throwing the cut rise and see what that one does (or should I say does not do) and they think that is all there is to 'A' riseball or 'The' riseball.
Maybe someday they will see one.
A few years back I went to Angels Camp up in the Calif mother lode country. Met with a pitching instructor up there. After we worked with the kid he wanted me to look at, he asked me to pitch to him.
I warmed up and threw a few dropballs and a few medium speed knuckles. The he asked me to throw him a few riseballs. He had no catchers gear on and I told him we better not because of that. He got a hold of a catchers mask and insisted I throw a few.
Very first one broke hard, late, up and in. Missed his glove completely and hit him right on the collar bone next to his shoulder socket. He was on a bucket but dropped to his knees, then fell to the left. Broke my own rule of never throwing that to someone not fully geared.
He didn't believe in them either because he had never seen one.
Now he believes, unfortunately.
