I/R- Rollover drop

[Classof2020]

So does an I/R fastball actually have more of a bullet spin? I know Cat says in some of her interviews that her FB actually has a bullet spin.

Coming into FP a few years ago my understanding was that a FB had a certain rotation - thus the electrical tape on the ball by the pitching coach that we worked with continually. So I think I understand from the I/R threads that it is still rotating toward the catcher but just slightly rotated on the axis . . . doesn't that make it also drop toward the outside corner having that angle sort of like a rollover drop? my daughter throws a peel right now so I'm not sure how a rollover drop actually comes in exactly myself.

 

[sluggers]

Class2020, this is going to get a little confusing, but please hang in there:

My DD threw a great rollover drop in college. Attached are some still images of her hand when she throws a drop. Look carefully at the hand position at release. The fingers at release are the same as if she were throwing a peel. Look at the other shots of her hand. She is doing "Extreme IR" at release.

The video of her above looks like she is throwing a rollover. But, I can post an interview of her saying she throws a peel. So, what is the deal?

FACT: The peel and the rollover are *NOT* different pitches. They are the same pitch, except the rollover uses lots of IR, and a "pure" peel uses no IR.

You can have your DD play around with IR on the drop by just asking her to "twist" her hand at release. She'll find she puts more spin on the ball, and the ball drops more.

Isn't an IR fastball simply a drop?

This is asking the wrong question. The only thing that matters is whether the batter can anticipate the amount of break. If the batter can, the batter will hit the ball. If the batter can't, the pitcher

In the real world, the pitcher is trying to fool a batter by throwing pitches with different amounts of spin on the ball. A ball with 10RPS has different movement than a 25RPS pitch. Obviously, the 25RPS pitch is going to break much more than the 10RPS pitch.

What a pitcher really wants are pitches that look the same yet break differently.


Wouldn't a bullet spin fastball be better than a 12-6 fastball?

As far as break is concerned, yes. A bullet spin fastball will have no break compared to a 10 RPS fastball.

*BUT* (and this is a big but), bullet spin fastballs are ridiculously easy for a batter to identify. The batter simply has to look for a "green spot" in the center of the ball. If there is a nice, bright green spot, it is a bullet spin fastball. If no green spot, then it is a breaking pitch.

A bunch of 12U players won't be able to identify a bullet spin fastball. On the other hand, the entire batting order of a D1 college team will be able to identify the pitch. If a team figures out which pitch is the fastball, the pitcher is dead meat.

 

[starsnuffer]

A bullet spin fastball like Cat throws is spun with the fingers, not the wrist. This is true for most pitches. Cat snaps her fingers when she releases the fastball. This is what makes the spin happen, not the direction her arm and wrist are moving. The spin is actually the opposite direction to what you might suspect the ball be spinning if a pitcher had no finger muscles and released the ball in such a way that the spin was the continuation of the arm path.

In reality this does not happen. Arm path does not influence spin as much as one might think. Fingers move so much faster then the arm can rotate or the wrist can move, which means that none of the mechanics that contribute to good arm whip really contribute or take away from spin direction, so long as the hand is able to orient itself in such a fashion that the fingers can make the correct spin.

-W

 

[coachdan]

Slugger little confused with your post but I don't dought for one min that you daughter had a great drop ball. Just question what we call it.

FACT: The peel and the rollover are *NOT* different pitches. They are the same pitch, except the rollover uses lots of IR, and a "pure" peel uses no IR.

How can they be the same with one using IR and the other not using IR? If there different then there not the same.

My DD threw a great rollover drop in college. Attached are some still images of her hand when she throws a drop. Look carefully at the hand position at release. The fingers at release are the same as if she were throwing a peel. Look at the other shots of her hand. She is doing "Extreme IR" at release.

Wondering why do you call this a rollover and not a peel? From what I see in the still shots it looks like a peel to me. The reason I say that is the rollover of the hand is happening several frames after the ball has been released. Next look a picture 3 and 4 and notice the position of her hand in pic 3 hand is down low near the bottom of her shorts then in pic 4 hand is much higher near the middle of her shorts. This tells me she is pulling up on the ball ie....peel drop

I also believe the peel and the rollover are the same pitch but some call it a rollover and some call it a peel. I have yet to see any video or still shots of a pitchers hand rolling over the top and down the front of the ball making it spin down. NOT POSSIBLE! The hand may flip/turn over after release of the ball but that is after the ball has been released and has no impact on spin. The spin is created by the upward pull on the back of the ball. A great example of this the video above of Cat many call this a rollover but I believe its a peel. Either way its a great pitch.

 

[starsnuffer]

The rollover drop was named before the time when we had high speed video to see what really happens, and based all of our coaching on what happens before and after an athletic movement (IE stance and follow through). If the ball is spinning in such a fashion that it would be rolling the correct direction if it were on the ground, it's a drop ball. How the spin gets to be that way is irrelevant. The ball will drop more the faster it is spinning.

-W

 

[dlee]

I have read all of the replies and maybe a bit more confused. So, is the most important part of I/R the transfer when the elbow hits the side and transfers the energy to the forearm? I know the next is transfer from forearm to the wrist but not sure why the hand is to rollover? So, if anybody can answer; 1. Is the major difference in I/R and "hello elbow" the transfer of upper arm to forearm when the elbow hits the side? 2. Why should the hand rollover after snapping through?

 

[BoardMember]

I have read all of the replies and maybe a bit more confused. So, is the most important part of I/R the transfer when the elbow hits the side and transfers the energy to the forearm?

Not exactly........The most important part of I/R is arm rotation.......Upper arm......Lower arm.......Wrist..........Kinetic transfer of energy from proximal to distal technically happens to HE pitchers as well.......It actually happens to most things that have "joints"........It's what they do or how they exploit that that energy that separates H/E from I/R.......

I know the next is transfer from forearm to the wrist but not sure why the hand is to rollover?

FOR TRAINING I/R..........For making sure/training full and complete forearm rotation........The hand doesn't HAVE TO turn over during the completion of the delivery.........That is NOT an absolute of I/R..........Especially with different pitches and releases. Turing the hand over ENSURES that the bio-mechanical goal IS forearm rotation............

So, if anybody can answer; 1. Is the major difference in I/R and "hello elbow" the transfer of upper arm to forearm when the elbow hits the side?

No.......See above........So the major different between H/E and I/R is arm rotation(s) to propel the ball vs. Elbow/Wrist flexion(bend up)........In other words, Bend the elbow up and bend the wrist up to propel the ball forward is known as H/E delivery........

Or create arm rotation(s) (E/R to I/R) in a tight radius to propel the ball........On is infinately faster and more powerful then the other.........

2. Why should the hand rollover after snapping through?

Again........See above..........

 

[Ken B]

dlee,
I'm guessing I agree with what was just posted, but I'll need to spend some time in the ole' dictionary to make sure

My answer is a little more subjective. Palm up to palm down might be similar to coil/uncoil and whip vs push. Starting palm up and ALLOWING the forearm/hand to rotate to palm down is maximizing the potential energy transfer. The easy comparison is something Doug Rommel experienced when he put a ball into his wall using whip.
A) Try to muscle the ball with a strong wrist snap and you'll find you can fling the ball pretty hard.
B) Start palm up, then lead with the elbow and pause it at the side to ALLOW the lower arm to whip; and you'll see/feel the difference. So will your catcher (or living room wall!)

To answer the second question--not ALLOWING the forearm to rotate after release would be like not allowing your swing to follow through naturally with a bat, golf club or tennis racket. You're not allowing the body to maximize it's potential.

If that didn't help......see above......


Ken

 

[Rick Pauly]

Check out this uploaded youtube video of Sarah throwing a fastball........other than her spine angle at release the fastball and dropball (internal rotation) are identical.
I've had this happen a thousand times with a thousand different new students: I ask them what kind of dropball they throw.....most say rollover dropball and then demo their rolling release action.....all think they get their fingers rolled over the ball before they release it. Then I show them their release on frame by frame video......then I show them their fastball release. The position of the fingers/hand is identical at point of release.....fingers directly behind the ball.
As the release happens an I/R action tends to put more energy directly behind the ball whereas a roll drop tends to have some of the energy moving slightly upward/offcenter of the ball......typically the I/R action will result in a faster pitch speed and usually a higher spin rate. Does that mean it moves downward more than a roll drop? Not necessarily 'cause ball movement is controlled more by release angle, release point and speed then it is by spin rates or seam orientation.

Not exactly........The most important part of I/R is arm rotation.......Upper arm......Lower arm.......Wrist..........Kinetic transfer of energy from proximal to distal technically happens to HE pitchers as well.......It actually happens to most things that have "joints"........It's what they do or how they exploit that that energy that separates H/E from I/R.......



FOR TRAINING I/R..........For making sure/training full and complete forearm rotation........The hand doesn't HAVE TO turn over during the completion of the delivery.........That is NOT an absolute of I/R..........Especially with different pitches and releases. Turing the hand over ENSURES that the bio-mechanical goal IS forearm rotation............



No.......See above........So the major different between H/E and I/R is arm rotation(s) to propel the ball vs. Elbow/Wrist flexion(bend up)........In other words, Bend the elbow up and bend the wrist up to propel the ball forward is known as H/E delivery........

Or create arm rotation(s) (E/R to I/R) in a tight radius to propel the ball........On is infinately faster and more powerful then the other.........



Again........See above..........

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Check out this uploaded youtube video of Sarah throwing a fastball........other than her spine angle at release the fastball and dropball (internal rotation) are identical.
I've had this happen a thousand times with a thousand different new students: I ask them what kind of dropball they throw.....most say rollover dropball and then demo their rolling release action.....all think they get their fingers rolled over the ball before they release it. Then I show them their release on frame by frame video......then I show them their fastball release. The position of the fingers/hand is identical at point of release.....fingers directly behind the ball.
As the release happens an I/R action tends to put more energy directly behind the ball whereas a roll drop tends to have some of the energy moving slightly upward/offcenter of the ball......typically the I/R action will result in a faster pitch speed and usually a higher spin rate. Does that mean it moves downward more than a roll drop? Not necessarily 'cause ball movement is controlled more by release angle, release point and speed then it is by spin rates or seam orientation.

Red bold above ... good to see this put in print.