Speed drop off with I/R

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May 16, 2019
415
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As much as it sounds like a lot, 1 or 2 things will address several of the power leaks. Her size and athletic build, depending on her commitment and coach ability, I could see her achieving 55-57 MPH in about 2 months. Excited for both of you !!!
 

Ken Krause

Administrator
Admin
May 7, 2008
3,911
113
Mundelein, IL
Piling on, her timing for her launch is late. She should be pulling away from the pitching rubber by the time she's at 3:00 (ball out in front of her). Part of that could be due to the bizarre two-handed backswing. I'd either backswing or cover the ball but not try to do both. That will allow her to get her body moving forward sooner as the ball goes back.

Also, as she goes into release in the side view it appears she's slowing down instead of accelerating. That's where the whip is supposed to happen, but it's not happening. I can only speculate but it looks like she's trying to be so precise with something that she's slowing down to make it happen. Have her focus on accelerating all the way through the back side of the circle with the upper arm leading in the way it is now. In other words, relax and be more athletic. Agree with Gags that she is hunching the right shoulder which doesn't help. Keeping it relaxed should help her accelerate through release.

All that said, she sure looks athletic to me. Getting her body parts working together properly should yield some great results.

One other thought that may be influencing her mechanics is if she made the transition from 40' to 43' this fall. Sometimes seeing that longer distance makes them think they need to muscle up more to get the ball faster - the exact opposite of what they should do. That could be causing some of the shoulder hunching and such. It happens a lot more than you'd think.
 

PJR

Oct 3, 2016
27
3
My DD spent 3 years (8U and 10U) pitching with a hello elbow style motion. I then worked to convert her to I/R with the help of the Hillhouse videos (a life saver), stickies on this forum, and by watching slow motion video on YouTube (Ueno, Osterman, Pauly, etc.). I'd say we got her 3/4 converted and she pitched that way for the 2 years of 12U. In the last 3 months we've been working on converting her the rest of the way, and to my untrained eye it seems like she's getting there (but I'm sure there is stuff I'm missing).

The problem we are hitting, is that her speed has dropped off since converting the last part of her motion. At the end of 12U she was pitching around 45mph, but since the conversion she's pitching about 40mph. She's 13, 5' 8", and is fairly strong (gymnast and other sports) so I'd think we should be able to get her up into the high 40's or low 50's based on other girls her age we've pitched with.

I have a few questions for the group, feel free to give feedback on 1 or all:

1. Based on the videos below, do you guys see anything in her motion that could be hurting her speed? Or do we just need to give her a few more months of getting used to the motion so that her timing is down, muscles are stronger, and she doesn't have to think as much when pitching?

2. Are there certain body types that don't do as well with I/R? I always think of her as having more strength than flexibility if that makes sense.

3. For pitchers who pitch at high speeds, what percentage is good form and what percentage is body type? Like do some people just have more fast twitch muscles (or whatever) and their speed can't be taught?

Just to be clear speed is not our main focus, we work on accuracy, spin, etc. too. The reason for the post is just that her speed has dropped off and is at the point where she'd be in the bottom 20% (I'd guess) of the girls pitching in her age group and I'd like to help her bring it back up.







Thanks in advance, love the forum and all of the info you guys provide!

Jim

A lot of good points by everyone from arm circle to leg drive to front side and growth spurts effecting velo. Good mechanics add mph. I however like to take a little different approach when it comes to velocity. There is an old adage in running. The only way to run faster is to run faster. The same philosophy holds true in pitching the only way to throw faster is to throw faster. It really is an oversimplification but the concept holds true. She needs to have one day a week where her only concern is how hard she throws the ball and she only works on velocity drills. I like to call it our blow it up day. Then measure, measure, measure and set goals. Measure everything, stationary, Full wind up, walk thrus, run thrus, etc.... .5 mph increase per month is a good goal. The measure everything concept lets her always hit a new high in something to stay motivated. At her age and speed 1 mph per month might be possible until you start getting into the 50’s. Once you hit 50 mechanics really matter, it is hard to get faster without them. You don’t mention in your thread how many days a week she pitches and what she works on her when she pitches. Common faults I see are pitchers working on too many pitches or just not throwing enough. In offseason, 4 days a week 125 pitches per session. Not everyone is the same, some girls can get away with less but 500 pitches a week is a good guide. Most girls who work hard enough should be able to get to the 50’s even with subpar mechanics. As far as training fast twitch muscles and velocity, yes it can be trained as long as you are in the correct training zone. See Jill Wolforth The Athletic Softball Pitcher Training book and video. Jill was Amanda Scarboroughs pitching coach.
 
Jun 10, 2010
554
28
midwest
Stop her 1st video at 11 sec...and the 3rd video at 8 secs. You will see her palm facing 3rd base. This creates a dysfunction in the shoulder for what your trying to accomplish.
1574871136862.png
1574871164792.png
This would be first thing I would work on along with ball path, chilling the big torso turn on load and then drive/front side resistance. jmo
 
Sep 29, 2014
2,421
113
OK....I'm basically not adding anything new here but maybe just looking at emphasis areas.

FIRST......GREAT JOB she looks pretty good overall seen tons of pitchers with lots of huge issues what were are in need of here is just some fine tuning.

I always try and form my opinion first without looking at any of the posts so I'm not influenced. The very first thing that jumped out at me was the slowing down at release (is it possible to upload these in full speed). It looks like what happened is you heard that you want your upper arm to slow down so the lower can follow through and whip....while this has some truth in it I think she got a bad cue or something stuck in her head, the only thing we are trying to prevent is the upper running out too far in front what really happens is that since your hand is on the outer part of the circle it should be going faster just let that happen via better front side resistance and not forcing it. I think the whole shoulder things is the mechanism she is using to try and control this decrease in speed so she hunches then at the end lifts it up.

I am usually not a big fan of changing people early motion because it is usually just style, and looks like she is using a "hillhouse" style but after reading posts I do think you might need to make some changes it seems to be impacting both her load and arm circle. If you have ever heard of the "double H's" for drive mechanics she doesn't really have a good first H that sprinters type pose then as she brings the ball forward (she does need to not rotate the ball here, have her extend her arm out like she is going to shake your hand that how her hand should look at 3 o'clock), her drive does seem a little more up versus out but as long as she isn't leaping its fine for now hopefully working on this will help with timing as well it is off a little; she then seems to take the ball away from her body which tends to make you keep plane by bringing the ball over her head she definitely needs to work on getting rid of that. I'm not usually a fan of wall work but maybe have her try a few drills against a wall, it would force her to not swings her arm out at the beginning then just tell her to keep the same plane her goal should be to keep the ball pretty close to the wall the whole time.

FINALLY....SHE IS DOING A GREAT JOB....keep on working this off season is perfect time for her to work on it.
 
Last edited:
Sep 29, 2014
2,421
113
Just a picture that might help show drive sequence. The model is not perfect and is just a student but you can see the difference.

The pictures are at farthest point of backswing, 6 o'clock, about 4:30 or 45 degrees and finally 3 o'clock.

I'll let you notice differences for yourself.

drive sequence.png
 
Last edited:
Mar 20, 2015
174
28
It looks to me like she was instructed to get to palm up at 900 and she is getting to that position. Just getting to that position and moving through that position as part of a kinetic chain at high velocity are two different things. IMO you have to train up to palm up at 900 to get the timing to close the arm quickly enough with authority. She is slowing her arm down so she can keep up. I would try palm towards third and master that and move towards palm up in increments. I’m just a bucket dad so if it doesn’t apply just ignore.
 
Mar 10, 2018
11
3
Thank you all so much for the feedback! Life got crazy for a day at work, but I plan to really dig in and respond tomorrow, I really appreciate the input.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,133
113
Dallas, Texas
You got some great info here...one other thing is to have faith and relax. Your DD is going through or just finished a growth spurt. Kids that look very athletic at 11YOA can't walk and chew gun at the same time when they grow.

Rick Pauly posted a picture of Sarah Pauly at 12YOA. It is priceless. My DD#3 started her first varsity HS ball game and fell down on her keaster going 15 feet from the pre-game team huddle to the bench.

Your DD will get it all back and more. So, just keep working with her and be patient.
 
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