Gotcha. I guess i have been using the wrong terms with her. Any suggestions on correcting it?
Hip Bruising Due to Elbow "Plant"
- Thread starter Boomers2012
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Gotcha. I guess i have been using the wrong terms with her. Any suggestions on correcting it?
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
I think you are going to have to do some troubleshooting to identify exactly what is going on. Especially the frequency of occurrence and what she feels when it happens? or does it happen all the time? You could try to give her cues to clear it more but it is such a fine line that you might just teach something out of her. A lot of girls don't have any brush or contact with the hip and the arm tends to go straight through with very little slowing down. I see a lot of high/low issues with this type of delivery so I would be reluctant to coach the hip hit directly unless it is frequent and severe. I think you are going to have to find out the root cause of how she gets into this position and focus on that instead, with the hope that by addressing this upstream, she maintains the feel of slight contact/brush but does not focus on it as something to worry about.
it looks like you have some good advice already and with some video from different angles should be able to see what is happening. I know that since I have been focusing on it, I have gotten to the point where I can hear it happen. It just happens so infrequently that I have not caught it on video yet.
- Jul 26, 2010
- 3,554
- 0
Boomers your daughter has good arm whip. The arm is just one small piece of the pitching puzzle, however. While the DFP forum it seems that arm whip is often the focus of discussion and can easily be misconstrued as the most important part of the puzzle, it is neither the focus or the most important part of pitching instruction. In other words, it is not the focus for the student.
I generally try to avoid automobile analogies when coaching, as young women usually do not relate to them. However, I think that in this online context this analogy may appeal to the audience.
Think of the pitcher as a car. The legs are the engine and brakes, the torso and core are the chassis, and the arm is the wheel and tire. Right now, your daughter is an 86 Cutlass with dubs. She has great arm whip. . really nice wheels, but she her engine needs a lot of work and her chassis needs to be built up to handle the acceleration, braking, and cornering forces involved in racing. This car doesn't want to cruise, it wants to compete.
Your daughter is similar to a lot of kids her age, the following is an observation, take it objectively, or don't, your call:
The engine creates the horsepower that is used for every other motion in the pitch. Now, some cars are more efficient then others and can make due with less powerful engines, but given that softball is such an american sport, we like to drop the biggest and most powerful motor that we can fit inside this car. Your daughter is stepping and stretching here, she is not driving and leaping forward. She has a weak motor at this point. Since this is the first part of the pitch that drives the rest of the motion, the focus should be here at this point in her development. While she should learn to drive using both legs as the engine, the primary driver is the pivot leg and achieving maximum force and extension is key here. Ballistic motion is not necessary. it is okay to ramp up the power more gradually, but some pitchers are indeed ballistic off the rubber and have great success. The key is overall energy creation and forward momentum at the point of full extension of the rear leg.
The chassis is what ties everything together. A V8 in a VW bug is not going to do much except fall apart. For a pitcher, the chassis is the core. The core has two functions as it relates to pitching. The core both resists movement (rigidity) and it powers independent movement of the hips and shoulders (the keys to any athletic motion). Txnick posted a great video explaining both how this works and how to train it. Your daughter is moving her hips and her shoulders together, she does not appear to have the core strength and stability necessary to move these independently yet. She also bends forward and backward arching her spine in this plane as well as she pitches, which robs her of whatever energy she may have created with her drive. The key here is to generate speed and then transfer that speed as efficiently as possible into the arm. This means hard and rigid braking. There is shoulder and hip motion happening here, but it is deliberate and independent. Instead of explaining it just watch the video Core Training for Softball Pitchers - YouTube
In order to get all this power into the ground, the car has to have great tires. This is the arm. Your daughter has great arm whip. The sequence is off a bit but you really can't do much about this until everything else is addressed. Sequencing is the most important aspect of pitching, throwing, and hitting, and sequencing is something that must be constantly trained and retrained. As the body grows, becomes injured, heals, and becomes stronger, sequence is effected and must be retrained. Teaching sequence is done by feel, which is why it is important that mechanics are sound before addressing it.
I hope that helps explain where I am coming from with my analysis and why I believe focusing on the arm is the wrong way to go. Your daughter will continue to have issues hitting herself until she learns to control her engine and chassis.
-W
I generally try to avoid automobile analogies when coaching, as young women usually do not relate to them. However, I think that in this online context this analogy may appeal to the audience.
Think of the pitcher as a car. The legs are the engine and brakes, the torso and core are the chassis, and the arm is the wheel and tire. Right now, your daughter is an 86 Cutlass with dubs. She has great arm whip. . really nice wheels, but she her engine needs a lot of work and her chassis needs to be built up to handle the acceleration, braking, and cornering forces involved in racing. This car doesn't want to cruise, it wants to compete.
Your daughter is similar to a lot of kids her age, the following is an observation, take it objectively, or don't, your call:
The engine creates the horsepower that is used for every other motion in the pitch. Now, some cars are more efficient then others and can make due with less powerful engines, but given that softball is such an american sport, we like to drop the biggest and most powerful motor that we can fit inside this car. Your daughter is stepping and stretching here, she is not driving and leaping forward. She has a weak motor at this point. Since this is the first part of the pitch that drives the rest of the motion, the focus should be here at this point in her development. While she should learn to drive using both legs as the engine, the primary driver is the pivot leg and achieving maximum force and extension is key here. Ballistic motion is not necessary. it is okay to ramp up the power more gradually, but some pitchers are indeed ballistic off the rubber and have great success. The key is overall energy creation and forward momentum at the point of full extension of the rear leg.
The chassis is what ties everything together. A V8 in a VW bug is not going to do much except fall apart. For a pitcher, the chassis is the core. The core has two functions as it relates to pitching. The core both resists movement (rigidity) and it powers independent movement of the hips and shoulders (the keys to any athletic motion). Txnick posted a great video explaining both how this works and how to train it. Your daughter is moving her hips and her shoulders together, she does not appear to have the core strength and stability necessary to move these independently yet. She also bends forward and backward arching her spine in this plane as well as she pitches, which robs her of whatever energy she may have created with her drive. The key here is to generate speed and then transfer that speed as efficiently as possible into the arm. This means hard and rigid braking. There is shoulder and hip motion happening here, but it is deliberate and independent. Instead of explaining it just watch the video Core Training for Softball Pitchers - YouTube
In order to get all this power into the ground, the car has to have great tires. This is the arm. Your daughter has great arm whip. The sequence is off a bit but you really can't do much about this until everything else is addressed. Sequencing is the most important aspect of pitching, throwing, and hitting, and sequencing is something that must be constantly trained and retrained. As the body grows, becomes injured, heals, and becomes stronger, sequence is effected and must be retrained. Teaching sequence is done by feel, which is why it is important that mechanics are sound before addressing it.
I hope that helps explain where I am coming from with my analysis and why I believe focusing on the arm is the wrong way to go. Your daughter will continue to have issues hitting herself until she learns to control her engine and chassis.
-W
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
If there is one blind spot in our collective pitching brain on this board SS just articulated it perfectly. It is true, we have a whole lot of focus on the arm whip and not a big amount on the lower half. I would love to see something codified on the lower half of the motion that is similar to the I/R stickys. I don't know about the rest of the bucket dads out there who have used this site as the main source of info, but I know that I have a complete lack of understanding about what a good lower half is aside from getting open, planting at 45, keeping good posture/firm front side etc. I am really comfortable with my understanding of the top half in isolation, but it's relationship tot he lower half is a black hole.
Although i do appreciate the thought and time this went into this post as opposed to your previous one, i still disagree that the lack of core strength is causing her to plant the elbow into her hip.
However, i do think you make some good points as it pertains to the lower body in which has not been a major focus for us until recently.
Thank you for the input in this post.
I totally agree with you. As you stated, the lower half seems to be overlooked, at least by me until recently. Java has some great stuff that he post about a week ago. I was surprised it did not arouse more interest than it did. I know we are going to start focusing on it based on his post/advice.
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,798
- 63
I personally don't think she opens her shoulder line enough during the initial push. When the shoulders are that square, there is no "lane" or "slot" for the arm swing........See if getting her shoulder line more open during the push and keeping it at about 45 degrees at release relieves the impact.......Let them square up after release vs. before........
Shock Collars work wonders also........
Dang i said this same thing. Small victory for me because I had the exact same thought on the shoulders and hips as well. Not opening up enough in the beginning.
I am very frustrated with my lack of knowledge in the UNDERHAND pitching skill, I feel as if i have been letting my dd down, I think that ANY time i can have the same analysis as a few mebers on here than I m definitely on the right track! I feel pumped and only wish I had posted my thoughts! Maybe Id look smarter! I feel as if some of this is registering! It also helps when you know who to ignore also! Just sayin!
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
grow a pair and chime in next time....you don't get credit for lurking and then claiming an idea....
...gotta get into the mix and take a few lumps. BM and JS alone could write a novel with how may times they've corrected my ill advised attempts to test my knowledge against the big boys.
...gotta get into the mix and take a few lumps. BM and JS alone could write a novel with how may times they've corrected my ill advised attempts to test my knowledge against the big boys.
