I've heard and read of the Fish Hook handpath. Would a few of you tackle what that means. Where do we see the hook and how does to play a part in a good swing? How does it differ from a straight path and how does it differ from casting around?
Fish Hook hand Path
- Thread starter lhowser
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The fish hook hand path is commonly used to describe a swing where the swing radius tightens near contact. The semi-circular hand path would resemble a fish-hook or "J" when viewed from above. Obviously, hands going the same speed in a tightening arc will cause the end of the bat to accelerate rapidly, and create a whip. (the end of the bat has less distance to cover since the circle is smaller, and if the speed remains the same, the distance that remains will get covered more quickly).
Paul Nyman has done a number of simulations on the force increase possible from tightening the swing radius. I'm pressed for time right now, but I know he has linked his simulations from a thread called "Double Pendulum" currently active at BaseballFever.com. Definitely worth checking out.
In short, suffice it to say that a tightening swing radius just before contact can add SIGNIFICANT power.
Naturally, the devil is in the details. Nyman would state that the most efficient mechanism for tightening the swing radius is to abduct / adduct the scapula (horizontally pinch the front scapula / shoulder blade towards the spine and horizontally stretch the rear scapula away from the spine) in the 1-2 frames before contact. This unload into contact is an exact reversal of the position that most elite hitters establish as they load (horizontally stretch the front scapula away from the spine, and horizontally pinch the rear scapula towards the spine). I think Nyman is right. I know from experience that this absolutely does work for elite female hitters.
When viewed from above, I've never seen a "straight" handpath by an elite hitter. It always is semi-circular. Typically referred to as "CHP" (for circular hand path). The fish-hook will look very similar until just before contact, when the circle radius will tighten to form the fish hook shape.
Hope this helps introduce you to the subject.
Best regards,
Scott
Paul Nyman has done a number of simulations on the force increase possible from tightening the swing radius. I'm pressed for time right now, but I know he has linked his simulations from a thread called "Double Pendulum" currently active at BaseballFever.com. Definitely worth checking out.
In short, suffice it to say that a tightening swing radius just before contact can add SIGNIFICANT power.
Naturally, the devil is in the details. Nyman would state that the most efficient mechanism for tightening the swing radius is to abduct / adduct the scapula (horizontally pinch the front scapula / shoulder blade towards the spine and horizontally stretch the rear scapula away from the spine) in the 1-2 frames before contact. This unload into contact is an exact reversal of the position that most elite hitters establish as they load (horizontally stretch the front scapula away from the spine, and horizontally pinch the rear scapula towards the spine). I think Nyman is right. I know from experience that this absolutely does work for elite female hitters.
When viewed from above, I've never seen a "straight" handpath by an elite hitter. It always is semi-circular. Typically referred to as "CHP" (for circular hand path). The fish-hook will look very similar until just before contact, when the circle radius will tighten to form the fish hook shape.
Hope this helps introduce you to the subject.
Best regards,
Scott
Thank you Scott,
That is extremely helpful. I thought that was the case. I'll seek out the Double Pendulum clip. I'm having a hard time modeling it with a bat without an exaggerated movement that looks more like a wrist roll or some attempt at a perfectly timed snap/push at the end. this famous clip of Rose for example is semi-circle but I don't understand the fish hook and I hesitate to use a term that I don't practically understand.
That is extremely helpful. I thought that was the case. I'll seek out the Double Pendulum clip. I'm having a hard time modeling it with a bat without an exaggerated movement that looks more like a wrist roll or some attempt at a perfectly timed snap/push at the end. this famous clip of Rose for example is semi-circle but I don't understand the fish hook and I hesitate to use a term that I don't practically understand.
- Nov 29, 2009
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[ this famous clip of Rose for example is semi-circle but I don't understand the fish hook and I hesitate to use a term that I don't practically understand.[/QUOTE]
Easy to see why rose did not hit for power. hips are fairly late.
Easy to see why rose did not hit for power. hips are fairly late.
- Nov 29, 2009
- 65
- 0
Years ago I figured out through the study of the elite hitters it was obvious this guy Mankin was just trying to sell something and did not have a real grasp of what was going on with the elite hitters. I am not saying you can't occaisionallly hit th ball hard with what he is teaching on occaision. Just will be very little consistancy.
Lhowser
In addition to what Scott said (Ssarge) the fish hook is also used to get the barrel of the bat out in front quicker on the inside pitch. Takes some practice to master the movement correctly.
Allows the hitter to make better contact with the inside pitch and along with correct rotation of the hips will keep the ball from hooking foul all the time.
Getting the timing right is the key.
Dana.
In addition to what Scott said (Ssarge) the fish hook is also used to get the barrel of the bat out in front quicker on the inside pitch. Takes some practice to master the movement correctly.
Allows the hitter to make better contact with the inside pitch and along with correct rotation of the hips will keep the ball from hooking foul all the time.
Getting the timing right is the key.
Dana.
I personally like the semi circular verses explanation verses rotational and in fact feel it may be even more elliptical.
If the actual pivot point is about 4 to 6 inches below the knob of the bat you may visualize this by choking up on the bat and seeing where the knob pivots at when you are at contact and that point of course would change based on inside, middle or away. It seems to help the kids understand it without all the science involved. We teach to hit up the middle first to demonstrate bat control. Our net is marked with two horizontal lines at 51 and 39 inches high from the ground and a vertical line in the middle. The tee is located 4.5 feet from the net so the two lines represent about 26 and 10 degree mean angles as the ball leaves the bat. Not sure if it is still on the WhipHit web site however there was a video from my garage using the bounce racket hitting into the net I just described. The student was a 12 year boy. We also measure off from the back corner of home plate so we have consistency in our tee work or soft toss. The net is also marked as to approximate foul lines so we have an idea where the ball should be going. We stress rotating as needed based on the balls depth in box and releasing the barrel of the bat at the best angle possible to hit our target areas on the net. Very rare to see an opposite field ball hook however we hit our share of foul balls inside to stay alive.
Howard
If the actual pivot point is about 4 to 6 inches below the knob of the bat you may visualize this by choking up on the bat and seeing where the knob pivots at when you are at contact and that point of course would change based on inside, middle or away. It seems to help the kids understand it without all the science involved. We teach to hit up the middle first to demonstrate bat control. Our net is marked with two horizontal lines at 51 and 39 inches high from the ground and a vertical line in the middle. The tee is located 4.5 feet from the net so the two lines represent about 26 and 10 degree mean angles as the ball leaves the bat. Not sure if it is still on the WhipHit web site however there was a video from my garage using the bounce racket hitting into the net I just described. The student was a 12 year boy. We also measure off from the back corner of home plate so we have consistency in our tee work or soft toss. The net is also marked as to approximate foul lines so we have an idea where the ball should be going. We stress rotating as needed based on the balls depth in box and releasing the barrel of the bat at the best angle possible to hit our target areas on the net. Very rare to see an opposite field ball hook however we hit our share of foul balls inside to stay alive.
Howard
Kind of like that day Crystal drilled Candrea in the coaches box and almost killed him Howard?
I still wonder how long it took him to recover from that shot. I know his knee had to be hurting bad after that. The man didnt stand a chance. Dana.
Kind of like that day Crystal drilled Candrea in the coaches box and almost killed him Howard?
Dana.
I talked with him that Sunday before we left and told him you look a little gimpy coach and his inside edge off to the side of the knee cap was multi shades of blue, purple with a faint hint of yellow.
That was the first time I had met you in person! That was a great week and good seats!
Howard
- Oct 12, 2009
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You can see the radius of Rose's hand path tighten up through the point of contact. In the first slide, notice how the last circle is on an arc that is just a bit tighter than the ones earlier on in the swing.
I think this is what Mankin means when he refers to The Final Arc, although he doesn't seem to talk about it much any more (at least in public).
I inadvertently discovered this principle while clearing stumps. I was using an axe and when doing so I didn't move my feet to hit roots both on the near side and far side of the stump. I found that I was hitting the roots on the near side of the stump with much more force, and I realized it was because I had to pull my hands in toward my body right at the end of the swing. This tightened up the radius of the swing and increased the speed of the axe head.
