Definitions of terminology

[tom.guerry]

swiveling the forearms gets the bat going rearward which resists turning with the hips so you can get separation.

this requires muscle action that externally rotates the back arm while keeping the elbow up and back as much as possible, then twisting/supinating the forearm (Mankin: "roll" the back forearm).

using the muscles to primarily lower/ADduct the back arm or losing back arm/elbow extension will interrupt stretch/load/separation.

back elbow should feel like it stays up and back, do not let it actively go down and forward.

see latest Mankin:

YouTube - MrBatSpeed's Channel

YouTube - MrBatSpeed's Channel

 

[ssarge]

back elbow should feel like it stays up and back, do not let it actively go down and forward.

That's exactly right, Tom, nicely phrased. Better yet, since "feel" cues are clearly not applicable to everyone, as we all feel differently (no matter HOW many times you tell us we all feel the same thing), rather than "FEEL" like you are doing this, perhaps the hitter should actually DO this.

I think the back elbow being "up" is NOT an absolute, since it varies enormously with MLB hitters - look at the scap load clip posted of Vlad on this thread, for example - but in the sense it shouldn't be SLOTTED, you bet. If that is what you are saying, I certainly agree with you. The back elbow SHOULD be back - another way to say that is that the rear scap should be loaded - as the hitter launches the swing. Combine that with some active stretch with the front scap, and you are in great shape.

No swivel needed to load either of those scaps, obviously. Is your point that the ONLY way to maintain that loaded position is to swivel something? If so, I truly haven't understood that in the past.


And if that IS what you are saying, you're wrong about it, but I'd rather know you to be wrong for what you are REALLY saying, rather than be wrong for what I THINK you are saying. I think you're wrong either way, but still (I know it how important it is to you to interpret what someone is REALLY saying, and I'd like to return the favor).


Did you feel wellphyt/aimhigh (not sure of ALL his identities) wasn't doing well enough on his own on this thread? I thought he was doing OK. I respect him as someone who actually works with his kid. Give that a try, and report back.

 

[sluggers]

ssarge & tom,

Guys, if you get personal again we'll ban you.

Ray

 

[ssarge]

OK, understood.

Thanks,

Scott

 

[tom.guerry]

sluggers maybe you can open one of those advanced discussion only threads since any further discussion her may involve references to science or other sports or to previous many years woth of discussions that would be bothersome or redundant to most readers.

Thanks.

 

[sluggers]

I'm a Luddite. I don't know how to operate a computer.

 

[Wellphyt]

He did say that, and if it is a cue that works for you and your hitter, fantastic.

But it is anatomically ignorant to say that the hands "turn the shoulders." The body does not - and can not - work that way.

Again, I have no problem with the cue, if you find it helpful. But you HAVE to seperate cues from reality. This cue is not even close to reality.


I liked the first 30-40 seconds of the video, very much. The guy is completely correct that set-up is extremely important. Tiny differences in setiup can lead to HUGE differences downstream. And the vast majority of swing problems are caused by incorrect action far earlier in the swing than where the problem becomes obviously visible. But we tend to treast what's visible. Consequntly, many people end up treating a symptom visible late in the swing, rather than the root cause (early in the swing). The results of that will not be good.

Properly viewed, the swing is a loading sequence, followed by an unloading sequence, with some overlap. Loading TO an optimal position is absolutely essential. There are VERY few hitters who attain elite status unless their load / setup / posture is really, really, good.

So I liked that first part of the video.







Again, if "scoop sand" works for you as a cue, great. It seems to me that most MLB hitters have a vertical rear forearm until they are pretty well started around the corner (and until the hips and shoulders are close to 45 degrees rotated). CERTAINLTY, it is still vertical past the position RVP defines as "connection." Making the timing for any "scooping sand" movement (which is going to lower the rear forearm towards a position of being parallel to the ground, rather than perpendicular to it) DECIDEDLY different than the timing for an underhand throw.


And of course, if you are accepting Mankin's premise - and I think you indicated an acceptance of Mankin's material - the BOTTOM hand is taking over at that point anyway. I honestly don't see how BHT is reconcialable with the top hand scooping sand. No one throws with their glove hand.

This kind of thing is what always happens when a serious attempt is made to reconcile / overlay hitting methodologies / systems. I realize SOME people have success building a hybrid. In many cases, they were lucky. Or are attaining success based on athletecism and level of play that won;t stand up to say, D-I pitching down the road. But some ARE able to build a quality swing using an amalgam of material. But the VAST majority of people don't. IMO, virtually everyone is better off picking one methodology, and executing it violently.


Finally, "if you can hit you can throw" is a nice catch phrase. May even be some truth to it, for whatever reason. But the inference is that it is true because the movements of the top hand are similar.

But that concept does nothing to explain why the baseball HOF is disproportionately full of guys who threw RH and batted LH. Obviously, being able to throw with proper mechanics in the top hand (holding the bat) is NOT an absolute. LOTS of pople throw RH and bat LH, and they aren't scooping sand with the hand on the BOTTOM of the bat.


Finally, no one throws better than MLB pitchers, and most of them can't hit for crap. And it isn't just lack of practice. In most cases, their throwing mechanics are stellar, and their hitting mechanics are horrific. WHY, if the actions are so similar?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the reason that MLB pitchers don't hit well, is because they spend most of their time working on pitching and not hitting. The phrase "if you can hit you can throw" doesn't mean you don't have to practice and work hard at hitting. But, I'm guessing most people already knew that.

The "scoop sand with the top hand" cue didn't work for me. Neither did Mankin's "THT". What worked for me was Mankin's video analysis on "Early batspeed" and his explanation of the backward arc of the barrel, which emcompasses "THT".

It would be a mistake to suggest that my studying Mankin's video analysis means I agree with everything Mankin says or teaches about the swing. Mankin is a resource. Nothing more and nothing less. As I said previously, getting too vested in any one particular methodology, IMO, needlessly limits a persons knowledge base. Using various resouces will not result in a hybrid swing, as long as your goal is the high level swing, and you understand what to look for when analyzing video clips.

Clearly, some instructors who use a more anatomical approach to teach hitting get upset over cues that don't match their understanding of how the swing anatomically works. The assumption on their part is that the anatomy of the high level swing is a settled matter. Some of us don't agree with all of the anatomy assertions being made. The function of the "back scap" is one example where there is disagreement. Apparently there is also disagreement on how the hands work.

IMO the most important comment by ssarge in the referenced post, was this:

"It seems to me that most MLB hitters have a vertical rear forearm until they are pretty well started around the corner (and until the hips and shoulders are close to 45 degrees rotated)."

He is absolutely correct with the above observation. And...there is only one way to accomplish that position and still whip. The Mankin clips that Tom provided links to are a big piece of the puzzle, IMO.

 

[ssarge]

At the risk of stating the obvious, the reason that MLB pitchers don't hit well, is because they spend most of their time working on pitching and not hitting.

Of course.

But not the conversation at hand. Tom says that those who throw in the correct PATTERN can lock in the correct (MLB, by his definition) hitting PATTERN.

Pitchers don't hit well because they don't practice. But their swing also does NOT reflect the same PATTERN as that of the position players / hitters. In large part, they look like disconnected, "hands to the ball" hitters. Frankly, they mostly look like athletically skilled but mechanically deficient 18 YO age-group hitters. That is a different PATTERN than their position-playing peers. But Tom's contention is that the throwing "pattern" locks into the swing, and IS the "hitting pattern." If this is true, the best throwers in the world should at least have a clue. Largely, they don't.

And of course, the throwing PATTERN for a RH thrower / LH Hitter has the hands reversed. So clearly, despite Tom's insistence that this throwing pattern is universal and NECESSARY to build a hitting pattern, it is NOT universal, and is merely one more competing theory - to use to build a swing.

The way to evaluate competing theories is to examine their efficacy when used with young hitters who then progress to high level club and college play. Tom can comment on how HIS hitters have done in that regard.

The "scoop sand with the top hand" cue didn't work for me. Neither did Mankin's "THT". What worked for me was Mankin's video analysis on "Early batspeed" and his explanation of the backward arc of the barrel, which emcompasses "THT".

I went through the same process you did, though in the opposite order. Spent a couple of years, working with 50 or more kids, using Epstein as a model, with Mankin layered on top. And at first blush, they ARE complimentary in that Epstein mainly stresses the lower body, Mankin mainly the hands / upper body.

Had immediate improvement in most cases, but eventually ALL the hitters hit a wall where improvement stopped. Always the possibility that is insturctor error. Could be. Worth noting I was affiliated with another instructor who was Epstein certified, and I spoke with Mike about that instructor. Mike told me the guy "really got it" during the instructional week at Mike's house.

At some point, the kids stopped improving.

Then I started emphasizing shoulder / scap loading, and an attempt to make the swing sequential - in other words continuous movement into load, and continuous movement continuing into unload. Some overlap between the two.

Saw the same rearward bat movement - caused SOLELY by proper use of the shoulders (I didn't even MENTION THT with THESE kids) - and saw swings which to date haven't hit a wall - many, many kids continuing into college and doing well there.

It would be a mistake to suggest that my studying Mankin's video analysis means I agree with everything Mankin says or teaches about the swing. Mankin is a resource. Nothing more and nothing less. As I said previously, getting too vested in any one particular methodology, IMO, needlessly limits a persons knowledge base. Using various resouces will not result in a hybrid swing, as long as your goal is the high level swing, and you understand what to look for when analyzing video clips.

I don't make that mistake. I've looked at everything out there myself. And respect you for doing the same.

Clearly, some instructors who use a more anatomical approach to teach hitting get upset over cues that don't match their understanding of how the swing anatomically works. The assumption on their part is that the anatomy of the high level swing is a settled matter. Some of us don't agree with all of the anatomy assertions being made. The function of the "back scap" is one example where there is disagreement. Apparently there is also disagreement on how the hands work.

I agree, but don't think this is descriptive of me. ANY cue on any given day which engenders the appropriate behavior for the individual hitter is a good cue.

Some of them would clearly (and in the experience of many) be bad for the majority of hitters, but might work for some.

If there is frustration, it is when someone says "scoop sand will work for your hitter." "It is like what you do when you throw" (not really, but often stated.) "Everyone should use it, and if you don't, you're not in the MLB pattern."

I personally find THAT kind of thing frustrating.

What I find as perfectly acceptable is "I have used this cue / approach with my hitters, and had good results. THESE are those results (kid made HS varsity, kid made a Gold team, kid played in college. Etc." Bingo, file the cue away, try it some time. IF it can be applied within the CONTEXT of what REALLY happens to the body when you swing (most cues can be, but context and communication are key). And IF the person offering the cue really works with hitters (many on these boards - unlike yourself - actually DON'T work with hitters. And certainly not multiple hitters. They give the impression that they do, but it isn't true. And everyone who has been around knows who does and who doesn't).

ssarge said: It seems to me that most MLB hitters have a vertical rear forearm until they are pretty well started around the corner (and until the hips and shoulders are close to 45 degrees rotated).

Wellphyt said: He is absolutely correct with the above observation. And...there is only one way to accomplish that position and still whip. The Mankin clips that Tom provided links to are a big piece of the puzzle, IMO.

Thank you for the kind assessment.

Respectfully, I disagree with your ultimate conclusion, for the reasons stated above. As a physical principle, whip is created when the swing radius narrows. There are several ways to manuever the body to accomplish this. Some much more efficient than others. A reversal of the scapula abduction / adduction (established at load) in the UNload portion of the swing is probably the most efficient.

Good ideas, and I appreciate the progress you are making with your daughter. Look forward to seeing her play in college one day soon.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Wellphyt]

Over the past year I have seen many video clips of students and instructors, who have been taught or teach, using the shoulder/scap loading/unloading methodology. Not one, matched the high level swing. Everyone of them had a "push" or a "pull". The reason they had a "push" or a "pull" is because they didn't use their hands properly, or "at all", to get the bat started.

Don't take my word for it, instead listen to the words of the guy from the Chicago White Sox Academy that I posted earlier. He clearly says that the hands are in control. Ted Williams said the same thing. Epstein says the same thing. Mankin says the same thing. Then there is this exhange between Barry Bonds and Jennie Finch:

Bonds, who will face Finch when the Pan Am Games end, has already begun playing mind games, trash talking with Finch at last month's All-Star game.

According to Finch, this is the way it went after she and Bonds were introduced around the batting cage:

Bonds: "I heard you're one of the best. Well, you're not the best until you face the best."

Finch: "You haven't faced my riseball."

Bonds: "You haven't see my top hand. This is what I'm going to do to you."

With that, the San Francisco Giant slugger hit three pitches into the seats, one to each field.

I'm not posting here to convince anyone that I'm right and ssarge or anyone else is wrong. I'm just trying to provide a different perspective to those who are still open and do not subscribe to any one particular methodology.

The Mankin video clip links that Tom posted illustrate the differences better than I could ever articulate in mere words. The professional hitters are using their hands to get the bat head started early (arc the bat head backwards). The amateur hitters are not using their hands. They are powering their swing with their shoulders.

Two totally different patterns. One high level. One not. In the Mankin video clips, there is no way to duplicate the bat head path that the professional hitters produce without using the hands early in the swing.

 

[tom.guerry]

the two patterns are the same thing Candrea is describing as gate swing vs live and independent hands (hands/appendages are not controlled by core).