Definitions of terminology

[ssarge]

And vice versa.

The difference being that Mankin, being a gentleman, was civil about it.

I've always liked Mankin, very much. Spent well over a year, with more than a dozen hitters and thousands of swings trying to get THT to work. No success. But I sure like him.

And he should forever get credit for defining illustrating the circular hand path at a time where most thought that very idea anethma.

Good guy.

 

[Wellphyt]

It's amazing how some on here and other hitting forums try to associate people who post about hitting with specific camps. You're a "Mankin" guy, you're a "Hitting Illustrated" guy, etc. I don't mind, I just find it interesting. I suppose some people are just into labels. I actually believe it's almost impossible to figure out how to teach the high level swing by getting too invested in any one particular camp. IMO, there is an advantage to remaining an independent thinker.

In reality, I'm a guy who has been trying to teach his daughter the high level swing for about five years. We started young. My daughter's swing is good, to the point where her coaches think I'm crazy trying to improve her mechanics. But, her swing was not what I consider to be high level, because she had a push in her swing, like all hitters do who are not swinging in the high level pattern.

Thanks to Mankin, Hitting Illustrated and Epstein, we recently figured some things out. The last missing piece of the puzzle. It was right there in front of me all along; I just missed it. Or, perhaps I wasn't ready to see it. Like I said earlier, IMO, people have to go through the trial and error process.

I really don't care what method or guru people choose to use. Whatever floats your boat. I just wanted to give people who are still searching for answers; a different way of looking at the high level swing.

At least we can all agree that having a "push" in your swing is bad and is not high level. I wish I knew what a "push" looked liked a long time ago. If I had recognized what to look for sooner, my daughter would have been further along.

If you want to put me in a camp, put me in the "instructors need to do it first" camp. IMO, all instructors need to swing a bat against live pitching and video tape themselves doing what they teach. I found it to be a very humbling experience. But, it woke me up and made me realize that I needed to do more study and make some changes.

 

[RichK]

ok, I'll bite : >

Can someone describe a "push" in the swing in simple terms...

Or point to a thread that does.

I don't see a description of it in this thread that makes me really understand it.

TKS.

 

[Mark H]

It's amazing how some on here and other hitting forums try to associate people who post about hitting with specific camps. You're a "Mankin" guy, you're a "Hitting Illustrated" guy, etc. I don't mind, I just find it interesting. I suppose some people are just into labels. I actually believe it's almost impossible to figure out how to teach the high level swing by getting too invested in any one particular camp. IMO, there is an advantage to remaining an independent thinker.

In reality, I'm a guy who has been trying to teach his daughter the high level swing for about five years. We started young. My daughter's swing is good, to the point where her coaches think I'm crazy trying to improve her mechanics. But, her swing was not what I consider to be high level, because she had a push in her swing, like all hitters do who are not swinging in the high level pattern.

Thanks to Mankin, Hitting Illustrated and Epstein, we recently figured some things out. The last missing piece of the puzzle. It was right there in front of me all along; I just missed it. Or, perhaps I wasn't ready to see it. Like I said earlier, IMO, people have to go through the trial and error process.

I really don't care what method or guru people choose to use. Whatever floats your boat. I just wanted to give people who are still searching for answers; a different way of looking at the high level swing.

At least we can all agree that having a "push" in your swing is bad and is not high level. I wish I knew what a "push" looked liked a long time ago. If I had recognized what to look for sooner, my daughter would have been further along.

If you want to put me in a camp, put me in the "instructors need to do it first" camp. IMO, all instructors need to swing a bat against live pitching and video tape themselves doing what they teach. I found it to be a very humbling experience. But, it woke me up and made me realize that I needed to do more study and make some changes.

I understand what you are saying but without knowing which camp's definitions and viewpoint you are using and speaking from, I run a much greater chance of misunderstanding your meaning.

 

[Mark H]

ok, I'll bite : >

Can someone describe a "push" in the swing in simple terms...

Or point to a thread that does.

I don't see a description of it in this thread that makes me really understand it.

TKS.

This would be an EXTREME push disconnect. Photo 18 of 31, Analysis

Normally it is much more subtle but even a small push often has a big effect.

 

[Wellphyt]

ok, I'll bite : >

Can someone describe a "push" in the swing in simple terms...

Or point to a thread that does.

I don't see a description of it in this thread that makes me really understand it.

TKS.

Get in your batting stance with your hands at shoulder height and your back elbow raised so it's level to the ground. From this position, start your swing by droping your back elbow to your side. Your hands will move forward as the back elbow drops. That is a "push".

In the high level swing, when the back elbow begins to drop/slot, the hands stay connected to the back shoulder. They do not move forward until the shoulders begin to rotate. IOW the hands stay back into heel plant/hip initiation. This what Ted meant when he said the hips lead the hands. Professional hitters call this "walking away from the hands" or "leaving the hands behind". Check out slow motion video of Pujols, Howard, Manny, Bonds, Kent, Mantle, Williams, Bustos etc, and you will see what I mean. The technique that these hitters use to keep their hands back, is why they whip instead of "push".

 

[Mark H]

Get in your batting stance with your hands at shoulder height and your back elbow raised so it's level to the ground. From this position, start your swing by droping your back elbow to your side. Your hands will move forward as the back elbow drops. ".

Not necessarily.

That is a "push".
".

One kind yes. If your arms move your hands forward faster than shoulder rotation would take them, early in the swing, it's probably a push disconnect.

 

[Wellphyt]

RickK:

Check out the link below. This guy does a good job of explaining how the hands work early in the swing. And...how to create whip. Notice how he mentions the importance of the hands turning the shoulders. He is clearly saying that the hands are in control, not the shoulders. This is what I meant earlier by "educated hands".

Notice how he cocks his hands as he points the knob to the catcher. When he refers to turning a double play, check out how his back hand turns over in preparation to throw to 1B. This is the "turn over" of the hands I am referring to, that creates the whip. This is what Mankin calls THT. Epstein calls it "scooping sand with the top hand".

Do the double play simulation and freeze where he freezes. Have a partner stick a bat in your back hand. Move your front hand back and grap the bat like you normally would. Have your partner place a ball on a tee so that you can hit it from your simulated double play position (bat now in hand); and then swing. If you do it correctly you will whip. Because the overhand throw and the high level swing are very similar. if you can throw, you can hit.

http

 

[ssarge]

Notice how he mentions the importance of the hands turning the shoulders. He is clearly saying that the hands are in control, not the shoulders. This is what I meant earlier by "educated hands".

He did say that, and if it is a cue that works for you and your hitter, fantastic.

But it is anatomically ignorant to say that the hands "turn the shoulders." The body does not - and can not - work that way.

Again, I have no problem with the cue, if you find it helpful. But you HAVE to seperate cues from reality. This cue is not even close to reality.


I liked the first 30-40 seconds of the video, very much. The guy is completely correct that set-up is extremely important. Tiny differences in setiup can lead to HUGE differences downstream. And the vast majority of swing problems are caused by incorrect action far earlier in the swing than where the problem becomes obviously visible. But we tend to treast what's visible. Consequntly, many people end up treating a symptom visible late in the swing, rather than the root cause (early in the swing). The results of that will not be good.

Properly viewed, the swing is a loading sequence, followed by an unloading sequence, with some overlap. Loading TO an optimal position is absolutely essential. There are VERY few hitters who attain elite status unless their load / setup / posture is really, really, good.

So I liked that first part of the video.

Do the double play simulation and freeze where he freezes. Have a partner stick a bat in your back hand. Move your front hand back and grap the bat like you normally would. Have your partner place a ball on a tee so that you can hit it from your simulated double play position (bat now in hand); and then swing. If you do it correctly you will whip. Because the overhand throw and the high level swing are very similar. if you can throw, you can hit.

Again, if "scoop sand" works for you as a cue, great. It seems to me that most MLB hitters have a vertical rear forearm until they are pretty well started around the corner (and until the hips and shoulders are close to 45 degrees rotated). CERTAINLTY, it is still vertical past the position RVP defines as "connection." Making the timing for any "scooping sand" movement (which is going to lower the rear forearm towards a position of being parallel to the ground, rather than perpendicular to it) DECIDEDLY different than the timing for an underhand throw.


And of course, if you are accepting Mankin's premise - and I think you indicated an acceptance of Mankin's material - the BOTTOM hand is taking over at that point anyway. I honestly don't see how BHT is reconcialable with the top hand scooping sand. No one throws with their glove hand.

This kind of thing is what always happens when a serious attempt is made to reconcile / overlay hitting methodologies / systems. I realize SOME people have success building a hybrid. In many cases, they were lucky. Or are attaining success based on athletecism and level of play that won;t stand up to say, D-I pitching down the road. But some ARE able to build a quality swing using an amalgam of material. But the VAST majority of people don't. IMO, virtually everyone is better off picking one methodology, and executing it violently.


Finally, "if you can hit you can throw" is a nice catch phrase. May even be some truth to it, for whatever reason. But the inference is that it is true because the movements of the top hand are similar.

But that concept does nothing to explain why the baseball HOF is disproportionately full of guys who threw RH and batted LH. Obviously, being able to throw with proper mechanics in the top hand (holding the bat) is NOT an absolute. LOTS of pople throw RH and bat LH, and they aren't scooping sand with the hand on the BOTTOM of the bat.


Finally, no one throws better than MLB pitchers, and most of them can't hit for crap. And it isn't just lack of practice. In most cases, their throwing mechanics are stellar, and their hitting mechanics are horrific. WHY, if the actions are so similar?

 

[RayR]

Get in your batting stance with your hands at shoulder height and your back elbow raised so it's level to the ground. From this position, start your swing by droping your back elbow to your side. Your hands will move forward as the back elbow drops. That is a "push".

In the high level swing, when the back elbow begins to drop/slot, the hands stay connected to the back shoulder. They do not move forward until the shoulders begin to rotate. IOW the hands stay back into heel plant/hip initiation. This what Ted meant when he said the hips lead the hands. Professional hitters call this "walking away from the hands" or "leaving the hands behind". Check out slow motion video of Pujols, Howard, Manny, Bonds, Kent, Mantle, Williams, Bustos etc, and you will see what I mean. The technique that these hitters use to keep their hands back, is why they whip instead of "push".

A lot of the push can be mitigated by getting some separation before launch. So, I think we agree on the hands back issue.

Look at the hitters below right before launch - what is the common element?

The lower body is allowed to get slightly ahead of the hands from this position.

A teaching queue of getting separation before works if the hitter doesn't do so by wrapping the bat / flattening the barrel.

Tipping the barrel helps organize the loading/unloading in this manner. There is a definite overlap of movements.