Definitions of terminology

[Wellphyt]

I agree that the back scap pinches toward the spine as the hands load back and up. However, I would never instruct a hitter to literally load the back scap. I prefer the educated hands approach. IOW, IMO the body has a natural tendency to support what the hands need to do. So, when the hands are loaded back and up during the stride, the back elbow naturally elevates or pokes, and the back scap pinches. The advantage of using the cue "turn the front shoulder down and in", is that it prevents a hitter from counter rotating the upper body in a horizontal plane. Plus it's just a fact that in the high level swing, the front shoulder turns down and in as the hands are loaded back and up to their handset position.

What has helped me to understand how the shoulders, elbows, arms and hands work in the high level swing, is to think in terms of, "whatever loads, must unload". I prefer hips and hands.

 

[obbay]

Thanks for the discussion- I now have a better understanding of the role of the scaps in the swing and I see that the "elbow up" can serve as a dumbed-down stepping stone toward using the scaps properly. (at least it does in my case)

 

[ssarge]

Thanks for the discussion- I now have a better understanding of the role of the scaps in the swing and I see that the "elbow up" can serve as a dumbed-down stepping stone toward using the scaps properly. (at least it does in my case)

Obbay:

It is very NON-intuitive for most people to load the scaps properly. A lot of people who think they have done it have not. Seriously. It just is a weird feeling / position for most people. It is something that comes naturally for elite athletes, and sometimes doesn't come at all for "typical" athletes. There are a lot of positions you can put the body in where it LOOKS like it has happened, but in fact it hasn't.

That said, it is worth the effort. Once a proper abduction / adduction load has occurred, and that process properly reverses through the swing, things start to get really, really more efficient. Maintaining connection becomes much less problematic. There is much less need to worry about which elbow does what when, etc. Things just start to happen sequentially and correctly.

NOTHING lets you tap the arms, hands, and bat into the core like proper use of the scapula complex.

Best regards,

Scott

 

[obbay]

Thanks again Scott, I now see this clip in a new light:
Photo 10 of 31, Analysis

 

[ssarge]

Obbay:

An excellent clip, with the horizontal "pinching" of the rear scapula complex clearly visible. More VISIBLE (though not necessarily more present) than typical because of the camera angle.

Abd though it is not obviously visible, you can certainly IMAGINE the stretch of the front scapula away from the spine - look how far past the midpoint of the body the front elbow is, and this is accomplished with little inward turning of the shoulders. He isn't counter-rotating them, he is loading them.

And there is NO WAY the typical hitter accomplishes this w/ "educated hands." Hands based cues MAY work to engender the appropriate shoulder loading / unloading for SOME hitters (very few, I would think). But any given cue / any given hitter / any given day could be great.

The distinction is enormous. And because few have felt it, and because it isn't visible in most camera angles, it doesn't get talked about much.

You might also notice that Vlad keeps the pinched rear shoulder as he launches and gets "around the corner." The fabric of his shirt around and above the "O" in his name make this clear. If the clip went this far, I believe you would see his scapulas "reversing" near contact. Rear scvapula stretching, front scapula pinching. This movement will narrow the swing radius and bring the hands inside a little more before contact. Adding adjustability to a small extent, but that narrowing of the swing radius REALLY creates whip and adds power. When Nyman ran simulations, he found astronomical increases in bat speed through narrowing the radius - as high as 30-40%, as I recall.

Those who say such movement is limited because it doesn't allow the hitter to adjust as much as a more hands-centric approach would do well to consider that NO ONE in MLB has a bigger self-imposed strike zone than Vlad. You have to ROLL it 4 times to walk the guy, he hits pitches EVERYWHERE just fine, and his numbers speak for themselves.


Although the camera angle isn;t definitive, it also appears to me that Vlad has increased his torso tilt during the stride / load as well. I say that because his head drops 8" or so, as is clearly visible against the wall in the background behind his head. My guess is that this pitch was below the waist.

I would also imagine critics might say, "well, this was an inside pitch (or low inside pitch), and Vlad was preparing for it." Yeah, OK. Merely proves the point that there is plenty of time to adjust prior to launching the swing. Can't have it both ways. Though I'm sure someone will try.


The shoulder / scapula loading / unloading is difficult to fully understand and optimally execute. Those who do tend to be great hitters. They are consistently connected, so the contact percentage is pretty good. And they hit with more power than the norm.

Good luck with your team and your daughter. If I can help, please feel free to PM me. Happy to look at clips, etc.

Best wishes,

Scott

 

[Wellphyt]

I have always liked that clip of Vlad. It's a great clip showing how hitters at the highest level use their hands early in the swing. Too bad it took me 5 years focusing on the wrong thing to figure it out. The last thing Vlad is thinking in that clip is "load the scap". Check out his hands. He gets his hands back in a good attack position and applies some serious "THT" as he initiates his swing and turns the bat towards the ball. For five years I was so focused on the back scap, elbows and arms; that I missed what the hands were doing. And...that's why my daughter had a "push"

What I learned is that if your scap is loaded.....it has to unload.
If your scap unloads......you are pushing.
You can't whip the bat like Vlad is fixin to do with a scap load.

The scaps essentially clamp to the torso so there is no slippage. They do this during the setup. The arms move the hands to their handset. The scaps must be clamped and remain clamped to whip. They can not load so as to unload. Big difference.

I'm not going to go back and forth on this subject. I just wanted to provide some insight into some things I have learned while working with my daughter. Most people have to go through the whole trial and error routine like I did, before they find what works. If you find that your daughter has a "push" in her swing, or she is "pulling" off the ball. And...you are struggling to try and fix it. One option would be to explore the possibility that their are two pivot points in the high level swing.

One pivot point is the back hip joint. The second pivot point is the hands. When watching video clips of elite hitters, I would encourage you to look for these two pivot points. It just might change your perspective.

I would also encourage you to check out any and all video analysis by Mankin regarding "early batspeed".

Peace

 

[BoardMember]

I have always liked that clip of Vlad. It's a great clip showing how hitters at the highest level use their hands early in the swing. Too bad it took me 5 years focusing on the wrong thing to figure it out. The last thing Vlad is thinking in that clip is "load the scap". Check out his hands. He gets his hands back in a good attack position and applies some serious "THT" as he initiates his swing and turns the bat towards the ball. For five years I was so focused on the back scap, elbows and arms; that I missed what the hands were doing. And...that's why my daughter had a "push"

What I learned is that if your scap is loaded.....it has to unload.
If your scap unloads......you are pushing.
You can't whip the bat like Vlad is fixin to do with a scap load.

The scaps essentially clamp to the torso so there is no slippage. They do this during the setup. The arms move the hands to their handset. The scaps must be clamped and remain clamped to whip. They can not load so as to unload. Big difference.

I'm not going to go back and forth on this subject. I just wanted to provide some insight into some things I have learned while working with my daughter. Most people have to go through the whole trial and error routine like I did, before they find what works. If you find that your daughter has a "push" in her swing, or she is "pulling" off the ball. And...you are struggling to try and fix it. One option would be to explore the possibility that their are two pivot points in the high level swing.

One pivot point is the back hip joint. The second pivot point is the hands. When watching video clips of elite hitters, I would encourage you to look for these two pivot points. It just might change your perspective.

I would also encourage you to check out any and all video analysis by Mankin regarding "early batspeed".

Peace

Otay Doc!

 

[Mark H]

I have always liked that clip of Vlad. It's a great clip showing how hitters at the highest level use their hands early in the swing. Too bad it took me 5 years focusing on the wrong thing to figure it out. The last thing Vlad is thinking in that clip is "load the scap".

I haven't asked him what he was thinking but I CAN see that he did load/adduct/abduct whichever it is.

Check out his hands. He gets his hands back in a good attack position and applies some serious "THT" as he initiates his swing and turns the bat towards the ball. For five years I was so focused on the back scap, elbows and arms; that I missed what the hands were doing. And...that's why my daughter had a "push"

Glad it all worked out for you.

What I learned is that if your scap is loaded.....it has to unload.
If your scap unloads......you are pushing.
You can't whip the bat like Vlad is fixin to do with a scap load.

You need to know when to load and unload and Vlad does. Otherwise you CAN create a pushing problem.

The scaps essentially clamp to the torso so there is no slippage. They do this during the setup. The arms move the hands to their handset. The scaps must be clamped and remain clamped to whip. They can not load so as to unload. Big difference.

The scaps are capable of a large range of movement in terms of degrees of rotation around the rib cage. And of course they do.

I'm not going to go back and forth on this subject. I just wanted to provide some insight into some things I have learned while working with my daughter. Most people have to go through the whole trial and error routine like I did, before they find what works. If you find that your daughter has a "push" in her swing, or she is "pulling" off the ball. And...you are struggling to try and fix it. One option would be to explore the possibility that their are two pivot points in the high level swing.

That's true. The axis of rotation moves from near the center of the body to near the knob during whip. And like you, I don't intend to go back and forth either. You have your mind made up and what I've said is enough to point the way to those looking.

One pivot point is the back hip joint. The second pivot point is the hands. When watching video clips of elite hitters, I would encourage you to look for these two pivot points. It just might change your perspective.

Well if you want to drill down that far there are all manner of joints rotating around axes. With reference to the bat, it rotates around the torso with the rotational axis shifting to near the knob during whip/wrist uncocking.

I would also encourage you to check out any and all video analysis by Mankin regarding "early batspeed".

Peace

OK, you are a Mankin guy. I thought you were an HI swivel guy? My mistake.

 

[BoardMember]

OK, you are a Mankin guy. I thought you were an HI swivel guy? My mistake.

He is both........there is only one that is both.........

 

[Mark H]

Tricky business that knowing that Mankin rejected Mr. Swivel's ideas.