barrel/hand pivot point, a.k.a TTB

[FP26]

Not sure how to reply to you and keep all your imbedded comments sorry.

TM seems to me to show staying on backside and barely touching front leg, so more over backside. I have tried to watch alot of his stuff, but it is hard to get thru alot of times. STuck back to me i get, i think, which is why i like the dynamic balance theory, i do however believe in more of a 60/40 to backside. I think it is the only way to get the correct tilt and body posture. Otherwise you stand more vertical (from a side view at least)

'But the pivot is occurring as that movement occurs.' Agreed, i had some prior comments about the wrist supination in another thread, and am not sure yet, depending on the barrel starting point, whether there is much supination. i would think there is less in the neck slot, but in an any case goes along with palm up palm down. This is probable where i am telling my DD to try and tilt properly and feel the 'Swing Down' to the ball and keep barrel angle the same as shoulder angle.

Agreed on the many definitions, and that is where the problem starts for me. We started to literally torque the hands like ™ and got severe barrel dump. Now i see it as more keeping the tight pivot point, to 'stay connected' and stay on angle with tilt at launch, swinging down and to the ball. I can see where it can help, but it seems easy to overcoach that aspect of it like i did.

Some of TM's demos are exaggerated. He is performing an action without including other parts of the swing. So it can be a little tricky. In general he promotes two engines. The rear hip pivot point and the hand pivot point. Both need to work together, otherwise the results will not be there. If a hitter does not get the lower body part correct, barrel dump could be a result. I agree with your 60/40 for the most part... There is some variation.

 

[fanboi22]

To be honest, since you mentioned @efastball, personally I don't think what @efastball suggests and what TM suggests is all that different. Create some coil around your rear leg/hip (which is basically what happens when you do what @efastball suggests) and try and hold it or increase it as you move out. You also "pullback" with the upper back as you move out which TM talks about as well as @efastball. The part which TM neglects, or at least doesn't talk about, is moving out in a balanced way such that your head doesn't get too far behind your belly button. Not sure what @efastball thinks about what the role of the hands/forearms are at launch, which obviously TM spends a good deal of time talking about.

I don't disagree. I guess i am not exposed to all of what eFastball states, but he seems to try and get pretty clear with his message which i like. No ambiguity, or at least he doesn't seem to try and be that way.

 

[fanboi22]

Some of TM's demos are exaggerated. He is performing an action without including other parts of the swing. So it can be a little tricky. In general he promotes two engines. The rear hip pivot point and the hand pivot point. Both need to work together, otherwise the results will not be there. If a hitter does not get the lower body part correct, barrel dump could be a result. I agree with your 60/40 for the most part... There is some variation.

I think this is where i start thinking about the 'core' and the obliques, which i think is the last thread i participated in a while back before the virus hit. I guess i don't think they are separate 'engines' per se, but have to work together. I always thought there would be slack if the hand pivot point got too far away or lagged back then 'snapped' to launch when all the slack was out. I figure it is less 'slack' as it is getting separated enough to allow for maximum speed and power. I still think it is a 'full body twitch' for a lack of better terms. Everything launches at once. I think that is alot of what people talk about sequencing, and i get lost with that discussion.

If timing and sequence is off, why not just start in a launch position and fire when ready? I think someone asked that on another thread.

This is where all the different concepts and terminology get a father all twisted around. Hoping to find something to try. But we have tried many things that overbake in the initial steps. like TTB. My DD hates me when i bring back a concept that we tried originally, overbaked, quit and not i say, ' remember when we did this, well don't do that, but do it like that but just a little different, and do it when you do that other new thing we just talked about'. haha.

 

[Shawn]

If that is his plan, I think it would work better if he wasn't misrepresenting TM in the process. To me lying is not a great way to prove a point.

I will offer you two thoughts here Tom.

1) I have been at this a long time. Even before I joined the forums, I have researched a number of different "systems" including people like Charley Lau. I have not found a single theory yet that I agree with 100%. Not one. Yes, some are closer than others, and those are the points of emphasis I tend to gravitate towards.
2) I don't need people to tell me what's wrong about someone else's theory. I'm a big boy and fully capable of reviewing their theory and determining what I like or dislike about it. As an example, I think you are an intelligent guy. And there are aspects of your theory that make sense to me and that I agree with. There are other points that I disagree with. When you talk about your beliefs, I fully appreciate your contributions. When you start bashing other people's beliefs is where I lose interest. And that goes for others as well, including TM. I follow his twitter account. When he speaks about hitting, I will read. When he starts bashing someone (such as Judy...), I simply scroll beyond it. I realize everyone is different, but I have enough faith in "people" (in general), that they are capable of making their own decisions and don't need me telling them what to do.

I’m with FP26, I’ve yet to be satisfied with anyone’s material completely. There are things from each one I like. I could care less about who is correct, and like another member says with his signature, I no longer care to be right.

 

[fanboi22]

I’m with FP26, I’ve yet to be satisfied with anyone’s material completely. There are things from each one I like. I could care less about who is correct, and like another member says with his signature, I no longer care to be right.

I agree as well. Even though everyone touts the truth, seems like more egos than it's worth.

Is this a coaching thing that everyone is trying to get paid for their knowledge? I guess just being a father, maybe i am missing why it is so critical to be right on a forum like this or twitter or whatever.

 

[_MIA_]

Is this a coaching thing that everyone is trying to get paid for their knowledge? I guess just being a father, maybe i am missing why it is so critical to be right on a forum like this or twitter or whatever.

It is a human thing. Are you married?

 

[fanboi22]

It is a human thing. Are you married?

Haha, unfortunately for my wife yes.

 

[TDS]

I agree as well. Even though everyone touts the truth, seems like more egos than it's worth.

Is this a coaching thing that everyone is trying to get paid for their knowledge? I guess just being a father, maybe i am missing why it is so critical to be right on a forum like this or twitter or whatever.

I can't speak for anyone else but no I don't do it for money.. Just trying to help folks reach there full potential.

 

[TDS]

Thanks, I guess i just can get my head around the hip slip. I guess that is a one legged vs 2 legged debate. I think he really promotes the one leg almost literally. Again i dont follow him and don't have enough time to watch all his stuff. But it sounds like he says the back leg generates all the power, maybe i am way off base. But how can the back leg be an anchor (with some other posters that i think i agree more with) and generate power. I don't see a push off the ground or am i missing something?

I think its a combination of the 2 pivots while the front side catches the swing.. Rich has demonstrated on multiple occasions he can't move forward (catcher/pitcher) without keeping all the weight back over the rear leg.. Since he can't move forward (catcher/pitcher) in space without giving up the rear leg/hip and shifting the weight to the front leg no one else can as well... He shows multiple videos of folks he claims have shifted to the front leg before swinging but has no proof.. The only way I can tell is how they handle the off-speed pitch..

 

[FP26]

I think this is where i start thinking about the 'core' and the obliques, which i think is the last thread i participated in a while back before the virus hit. I guess i don't think they are separate 'engines' per se, but have to work together. I always thought there would be slack if the hand pivot point got too far away or lagged back then 'snapped' to launch when all the slack was out. I figure it is less 'slack' as it is getting separated enough to allow for maximum speed and power. I still think it is a 'full body twitch' for a lack of better terms. Everything launches at once. I think that is alot of what people talk about sequencing, and i get lost with that discussion.

If timing and sequence is off, why not just start in a launch position and fire when ready? I think someone asked that on another thread.

This is where all the different concepts and terminology get a father all twisted around. Hoping to find something to try. But we have tried many things that overbake in the initial steps. like TTB. My DD hates me when i bring back a concept that we tried originally, overbaked, quit and not i say, ' remember when we did this, well don't do that, but do it like that but just a little different, and do it when you do that other new thing we just talked about'. haha.

I like the way you are coming at this. Trying to learn with a sense of caution. Its refreshing to have this type of conversation.

The two engine thing is where I differ from some others. They can be referred to as engines but, I agree with you, in that they have to work together. Some people will say the hips lead. Others will say the hands lead or trigger the swing. In my opinion they both work together and launch simultaneously. You first have to get fully stretched ( I refer to it as max coil but it is more than that). Once in that launch position as soon as its go time, you go. Whether you think about it as hips(core) or hands it really doesnt matter. Go is go. Both ends of the stretch are activated at that time.

What typically causes barrel dump is that the top of the machine (hands) are firing but the bottom (hips or core) are lagging behind.