Back elbow and hands

[Erik]

.....

.....

FFS,

who is this hitter?

Lil'E VIP

 

[cartersball]

FFS,

who is this hitter?

Lil'E VIP

Looks like Sean Rodriguez when he was with the Angels.

 

[JimB]

Enea fattened-up against the non-conference opponents who had less than stellar pitching. Her conference stats (ab-27, ave-.233, hr-2, slg-.519) are much lower. Bush, on the other hand, is hitting conference pitching at a .433 clip.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Enea fattened-up against the non-conference opponents who had less than stellar pitching. Her conference stats (ab-27, ave-.233, hr-2, slg-.519) are much lower. Bush, on the other hand, is hitting conference pitching at a .433 clip.

Some swing clips of Megan Bush from last weekend ...

Megan Bush at 2009 WCWS ....

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

What's your point, Chris (FFS)? That this is the norm? That 12-14 YO girls CAN normally do it w/ impugnity and things will go well? What?

I've got a clip that proves every negative, too. So what? You know very well it ISN'T typical for MLB hitters. Most elite hitters DO NOT lose the vertical rear elbow until they are around he corner. As you yorself have pointed out on this and other boards.

So make a point already instead of just trying to cleverly illustrate that I am wrong with an non-annotated picture.

Is it true that every pro golfer kills a snake in a tree with his back swing if I post a clip of Furyk? Should I post a clip of Furyk and say "this is how kids should swing the club?"

It isn't uncommon IF the hands are still proximate to and near the same height as the rear shoulder (meaning the rear forearm is vertical). It's pretty uncommon for world-class hitters if that rear forearm ISN'T vertical.

PLEASE don't bother posting another few clips. Unless you think that a sizeable percentage of the 400 MLB hitters actually do this.

I believe the other Chris - O'Leary - is correct. The large majority of young female hitters would be ill-advised starting out to emulate a swing where the hands come down before the hitter gets around the corner.

Ssarge, my only point is that it should not be considered alarming for the rear elbow to slightly lead the hands, temporarily, prior to reaching the "RVP Connection Point" position ... something that Yeager has documented as well.

 

[Ken Krause]

I like what Wellphyt said. The better the athlete, the more they can deviate from the standard and still be successful. I know a HS hitter around my area who has one of the ugliest swings you'd ever want to see. No rotation, drops the hands, lets go of the bat with the rear hand way too early, and looks more like she's trying to knock the stuffing out of a mattress than hit a ball. Yet she is successful enough to get her name in the paper now and then for knocking a ball over the fence, or hitting doubles or triples.

The kid is a beast. About 6'1", tremendously strong in her upper body (relative to other females) and super aggressive. She is also a standout volleyball and basketball player, by the way. I don't think her swing would work at the D1 level, and I don't think it even works that well against the better HS pitchers. But it works well enough often enough that she's never felt compelled to change it. Several of us have tried.

For most players, though, it would be a quick ticket to the bench. Her athleticism allows her to get away with it, because when she makes contact the ball flies off her bat.

She's the exception, though. For kids with average abilities better mechanics helps. I've seen it happen even at the younger levels. You don't have to match the HLBB precisely -- remember it takes those players several years to acquire that swing; most FP players are well past their playing careers by the time they get to the same age. But the broader parameters definitely help. Getting the hips to lead the swing, maintaining connection, staying relaxed, learning to do everything at the right time, those are things worth pursuing. And in most cases, close enough is close enough.

 

[softballphreak]

Hillhouse deals with this same mentality when he critiques Jennie Finch’s, Monica Abbott’s or any other successful FP pitcher’s mechanics. He makes a factual comment about how a pitcher’s mechanics won’t allow them to create the proper spin to throw a rise ball, and he gets a bunch of strike out, era and win loss stats that have nothing to do with his factual observation.

I've consistently said that the minus 8 bats and short fences in FP make it possible for players to succeed with mechanics that don't match the HLBB swing. As Epstein states in one of his articles I recently posted a link to, the more athletic a player is the less perfect they have to be with their mechanics. No big surprise there. Combine a big strong athletic player with a minus 8 high tech carbon fiber bat and short fences(190 feet down the right field line in some cases), and you can get away with all kinds of stuff.

My DD is not a big strong athletic girl. She can't get away with what some of these girls get away with. I believe others on here have pointed that out as well.

The bottom line is that the FP community has come out in recent years and stated that the FP swing should be the same as the HLBB swing. Like it or not that revelation is now a part of our sport. Given this revelation, many in FP spend a considerable amount of time studying the HLBB swing including swinging a bat, in an attempt to isolate the core mechanics involved. Understandably many veteran coaches and instructors in FP could care less about the HLBB swing. They’ve had success teaching what they’ve been teaching, and they aren’t going to change what they’ve been teaching for the last 10, 15, 20 years.

Instead they throw out meaningless stats that have nothing to do with whether or not a FP hitter is using HLBB swing mechanics. I suppose it’s easier to change the subject, rather than discuss the actual mechanics being discussed.

Can we please just agree that some FP players don’t need perfect mechanics to have success? I had a 13 year old on our team in our last tournament hit two line drives off a 200 foot fence doing the hands-to-the-ball swing down method. Should we teach that swing to all the girls?

As I’ve said before, FP is full of coaches and instructors who aren't teaching the HLBB swing. They could care less. They don’t study the HLBB swing because they are very content teaching what they’ve been teaching. Fine, I have no problem with that.

But I promise you, there is some parent out there with a daughter who is an average athlete like my daughter and they are looking for any edge they can get. Maybe their daughter has some bat drag, or is dropping her hands prior to swinging, or is dumping the barrel. Just maybe they’ll read my post pointing out the factual difference between Stacy and the Florida players, and give what Stacy is doing a try. Some on here seem to have a really hard time understanding that not all of us have daughters who are stellar athletes or are Amazon Women.

Btw, I don’t consider myself an internet hitting guru. That would be guys like CO who have a website and sell stuff. I’m just a dad and coach with a passion for hitting. Studying and discussing hitting is something I enjoy.

Makes good sense! Even those with the real good, mechanically sound swings do not hit every good hit with a perfect swing. Trying to learn their swing and getting the mechanics somewhat close is exactly what should be happening.

Seeing an example of a perfect swing and discussing what is right with it and what is wrong is a good tool for learning.

 

[ssarge]

Ssarge, my only point is that it should not be considered alarming for the rear elbow to slightly lead the hands, temporarily, prior to reaching the "RVP Connection Point" position ... something that Yeager has documented as well.

I agree. As I said, it ISN'T alarming IF the hands remain proximate to and at about the same height as the rear shoulder (vertical rear forearm is manitained). In that case, the hands slightly trailing the rear elbow seems fine to me.

However, if the hands drop, and the Vee of the rear elbow becomes an eLL before the hitetr gets around the corner, it IS concerning. SOme of the best athletes in the world can probably make that work. Painful experience tells me that the typical 14 YO female can't.

Scott

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I like what Wellphyt said. The better the athlete, the more they can deviate from the standard and still be successful. I know a HS hitter around my area who has one of the ugliest swings you'd ever want to see. No rotation, drops the hands, lets go of the bat with the rear hand way too early, and looks more like she's trying to knock the stuffing out of a mattress than hit a ball. Yet she is successful enough to get her name in the paper now and then for knocking a ball over the fence, or hitting doubles or triples.

I have a clip in my library of a hitter clanging one off the wall and missing a home run by two vertical feet.

However, she adjusts to the pitch by dropping her hands pretty severely.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I agree. As I said, it ISN'T alarming IF the hands remain proximate to and at about the same height as the rear shoulder (vertical rear forearm is manitained). In that case, the hands slightly trailing the rear elbow seems fine to me.

However, if the hands drop, and the Vee of the rear elbow becomes an eLL before the hitetr gets around the corner, it IS concerning. SOme of the best athletes in the world can probably make that work. Painful experience tells me that the typical 14 YO female can't.

Scott

Agree with this. I use the terms "Power-V" versus "Lazy-L" with my hitters. Kids seem to get a sense that I'm negative on the 'eLL' ... "Lazy-L".