- Oct 12, 2009
- 1,460
- 0
She is stronger and more coordinated than most young kids. She manages to maintain connection whereas most kids would introduce too much slack into their swings.
Back elbow and hands
- Thread starter Shawn
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
She is stronger and more coordinated than most young kids. She manages to maintain connection whereas most kids would introduce too much slack into their swings.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
CO, I agree with Howard ... "I see her hands slightly ahead of her elbow".
I don't see this as "bat drag" relative to the alignment of the hands/rear-elbow/rear-shoulder/rear-hip at the "RVP Connection Point" position.
Her elbow was ahead briefly prior to the "RVP Connection Point" position, but I don't see it that way at the "RVP Connection Point" position.
It isn't that uncommon for the elbow to temporarily lead prior to the "RVP Connection Point" position. IMO, ultra-conservative restrictions to avoid "bat drag" can take hitters away from the pattern. I would instead suggest that it is better to accept/understand that a good swing will border on what you consider 'bat drag', and to instead focus on mechanics that duplicate a good swing.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Here's Kelsey Bruder of FL showing the same pattern...
There's a reason why this swing is very rare at the highest levels of FP and BB.
There's also a reason why this HR went to the opposite field.
Here's Stacy hitting a HR in the 2009 World Cup ...
Here's Francesca hitting a HR last weekend ....
It isn't uncommon IF the hands are still proximate to and near the same height as the rear shoulder (meaning the rear forearm is vertical). It's pretty uncommon for world-class hitters if that rear forearm ISN'T vertical. And personally, I would say that a hitter does this at her peril. Mendoza gets great results, obviously. Before trying to emulate what she does, you might want to also be sure your athletecism is comparable. Chris's point that 99% of young female hitters would struggle with these mechanics isn't far off the mark, IMO.
That said, Mendoza is one of my three favorite hitters in the woirld, and probably one of the three BEST in the world. Without question, she is one of the great citizens in the game, she gives back to the sport feverishly, and you may NEVER meet a nicer person.
On Florida: Enea, Bruder, Bush, Schutte, increasingly Paculba - produce huge results with a swing that is different than that used by the majority of D-1. I have seen Florida in person several times in the past couple years, and have competed with these hitters in TB over the years. I've seen them all hit a lot of times. Incredible accomplishments, and most of them improved their production AFTER getting to Florida. That is rare, IMO. Certainly rare at the SEC lervel or for that matter, in D-1. So Walton is certainly doing something right (another VERY nice person, BTW).
You just can't dismiss the mechanics out of hand. Not with the results being generated. But personally, I'd attribute a lot of it to an incredible amount of repetition. NO ONE works harder at hitting than Florida. The girls take an insane number of swings every week. Year round. They play in Florida, and live in SoCal. As much as anything, I'd say their success is evidence that any reasonable plan violently executed is pretty workable. Because they do that (make it work). Whether it is the perfect approach mechanically is debatable. Again, absent insane athletecism and work ethic, I don't know it this is the right approach for a young female hitter. In fact, the learning curve to success using a swing like this would be painful, and would almost guarantee that most girls in Club Ball would not earn playing time all that often, and would probably lose the chance to hone their craft. Because most girls would struggle trying to make a swing like this work against live pitching. Would struggle for quite a while. In my opinion - based on experience - virtually NO ONE is going to adopt mechanics like those of the Florida hitters and attain quick success. I would think long and hard before trying it as a young hitter, personally.
I sure applaud their production in college, though. Just phenomenal.
Best regards,
Scott
Last edited:
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
.....
.....
.....
What's your point, Chris (FFS)? That this is the norm? That 12-14 YO girls CAN normally do it w/ impugnity and things will go well? What?
I've got a clip that proves every negative, too. So what? You know very well it ISN'T typical for MLB hitters. Most elite hitters DO NOT lose the vertical rear elbow until they are around he corner. As you yorself have pointed out on this and other boards.
So make a point already instead of just trying to cleverly illustrate that I am wrong with an non-annotated picture.
Is it true that every pro golfer kills a snake in a tree with his back swing if I post a clip of Furyk? Should I post a clip of Furyk and say "this is how kids should swing the club?"
It isn't uncommon IF the hands are still proximate to and near the same height as the rear shoulder (meaning the rear forearm is vertical). It's pretty uncommon for world-class hitters if that rear forearm ISN'T vertical.
PLEASE don't bother posting another few clips. Unless you think that a sizeable percentage of the 400 MLB hitters actually do this.
I believe the other Chris - O'Leary - is correct. The large majority of young female hitters would be ill-advised starting out to emulate a swing where the hands come down before the hitter gets around the corner.
I've got a clip that proves every negative, too. So what? You know very well it ISN'T typical for MLB hitters. Most elite hitters DO NOT lose the vertical rear elbow until they are around he corner. As you yorself have pointed out on this and other boards.
So make a point already instead of just trying to cleverly illustrate that I am wrong with an non-annotated picture.
Is it true that every pro golfer kills a snake in a tree with his back swing if I post a clip of Furyk? Should I post a clip of Furyk and say "this is how kids should swing the club?"
It isn't uncommon IF the hands are still proximate to and near the same height as the rear shoulder (meaning the rear forearm is vertical). It's pretty uncommon for world-class hitters if that rear forearm ISN'T vertical.
PLEASE don't bother posting another few clips. Unless you think that a sizeable percentage of the 400 MLB hitters actually do this.
I believe the other Chris - O'Leary - is correct. The large majority of young female hitters would be ill-advised starting out to emulate a swing where the hands come down before the hitter gets around the corner.
Last edited:
I don't like the swings of the Florida hitters at all. There is no way my DD can stay connected starting her swing from a dead stop like these girls do. Bruder and Francesca are borderline slot then swing IMO.
Stacey on the other hand does the one thing that I keep trying to point out. IMO it is what separates the HLBB swing from the typical FP swing. Watch the direction of her barrel as she tucks her back elbow. She sends the barrel backwards. The early backward movement of her barrel is a function of how she fattens her hands. At GO her barrel is already in motion. This is the running start that some of us believe is beneficial.
Compare what Stacey does to the Florida hitters. I see the Florida hitters just drop their hands down and yank the bat around. Up until this past winter my DD's swing was similar to the Florida hitters. The result was bat drag. Most girls don't have the arm and wrist strength to pull off this type swing without experiencing some bat drag. We've switched over to Stacey's swing. My DD says it feels much smoother. Probably because she isn't starting her swing form a dead stop anymore.
I have a game swing of Mendoza from the front. It's not the best view, but I believe she does what Stacey does from a flatter handset position. If the player starts from a flat handset position it's hard to detect what their doing.
Stacey on the other hand does the one thing that I keep trying to point out. IMO it is what separates the HLBB swing from the typical FP swing. Watch the direction of her barrel as she tucks her back elbow. She sends the barrel backwards. The early backward movement of her barrel is a function of how she fattens her hands. At GO her barrel is already in motion. This is the running start that some of us believe is beneficial.
Compare what Stacey does to the Florida hitters. I see the Florida hitters just drop their hands down and yank the bat around. Up until this past winter my DD's swing was similar to the Florida hitters. The result was bat drag. Most girls don't have the arm and wrist strength to pull off this type swing without experiencing some bat drag. We've switched over to Stacey's swing. My DD says it feels much smoother. Probably because she isn't starting her swing form a dead stop anymore.
I have a game swing of Mendoza from the front. It's not the best view, but I believe she does what Stacey does from a flatter handset position. If the player starts from a flat handset position it's hard to detect what their doing.
Last edited:
Bucketpapi
Banned
- May 28, 2008
- 38
- 0
Yeah, I really hate their swings, especially Enea. I hate the fact she has 14 HRs in 30 games which is 2nd in the nation. She is also 2nd in the nation in RBIs
I really don't like her swing. It's much too smooth, balanced and powerful for my taste.
And her 976 slugging % isn't very impressive.
YouTube - Francesca Enea HR off scoreboard! 2.28.09
What really kills me is the fact that they are 1st in the nation in HRs per game and 1st in the nation in slugging % for Div. I schools.
How do they do that with their crappy swings?
Gator Softball Statistics - GatorZone.com
They should fire their coaches and hire an internet guru.
Last edited:
Hillhouse deals with this same mentality when he critiques Jennie Finch’s, Monica Abbott’s or any other successful FP pitcher’s mechanics. He makes a factual comment about how a pitcher’s mechanics won’t allow them to create the proper spin to throw a rise ball, and he gets a bunch of strike out, era and win loss stats that have nothing to do with his factual observation.
I've consistently said that the minus 8 bats and short fences in FP make it possible for players to succeed with mechanics that don't match the HLBB swing. As Epstein states in one of his articles I recently posted a link to, the more athletic a player is the less perfect they have to be with their mechanics. No big surprise there. Combine a big strong athletic player with a minus 8 high tech carbon fiber bat and short fences(190 feet down the right field line in some cases), and you can get away with all kinds of stuff.
My DD is not a big strong athletic girl. She can't get away with what some of these girls get away with. I believe others on here have pointed that out as well.
The bottom line is that the FP community has come out in recent years and stated that the FP swing should be the same as the HLBB swing. Like it or not that revelation is now a part of our sport. Given this revelation, many in FP spend a considerable amount of time studying the HLBB swing including swinging a bat, in an attempt to isolate the core mechanics involved. Understandably many veteran coaches and instructors in FP could care less about the HLBB swing. They’ve had success teaching what they’ve been teaching, and they aren’t going to change what they’ve been teaching for the last 10, 15, 20 years.
Instead they throw out meaningless stats that have nothing to do with whether or not a FP hitter is using HLBB swing mechanics. I suppose it’s easier to change the subject, rather than discuss the actual mechanics being discussed.
Can we please just agree that some FP players don’t need perfect mechanics to have success? I had a 13 year old on our team in our last tournament hit two line drives off a 200 foot fence doing the hands-to-the-ball swing down method. Should we teach that swing to all the girls?
As I’ve said before, FP is full of coaches and instructors who aren't teaching the HLBB swing. They could care less. They don’t study the HLBB swing because they are very content teaching what they’ve been teaching. Fine, I have no problem with that.
But I promise you, there is some parent out there with a daughter who is an average athlete like my daughter and they are looking for any edge they can get. Maybe their daughter has some bat drag, or is dropping her hands prior to swinging, or is dumping the barrel. Just maybe they’ll read my post pointing out the factual difference between Stacy and the Florida players, and give what Stacy is doing a try. Some on here seem to have a really hard time understanding that not all of us have daughters who are stellar athletes or are Amazon Women.
Btw, I don’t consider myself an internet hitting guru. That would be guys like CO who have a website and sell stuff. I’m just a dad and coach with a passion for hitting. Studying and discussing hitting is something I enjoy.
Tim Walton is a great hitting coach with great athletes. His players get better in college. Few colleges have hitting coaches that make their players better after their freshman year. Candrea and Meyers make a difference. FL hits bombs with better than average, but not perfect swings due to many factors besides mechanics such as practice time and mental training. I asked ex travel ball coach Jerry Glasco what he thought the main thing he did with Georgia hitters last year that led to the phenomenal increase in production from the year before and his answer was "loved em up every day" and "practiced a lot". Nothing to do with mechanics. Walton's kids are well prepared and in an enviroment where they can emotionally succeed. And their mechanics improve. If you look at FL, AZ, AZ St, GA, or ALand compare their stats from year to year you will see improvement in players performance from their freshman year. In many schools you do not. And they are all teaching mechanics.
