- Jun 8, 2016
- 16,118
- 113
I'll have to think of something else to say to make it a hat trick. I'll get on that ASAP..
HELP! please evaluate my daughters swing
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I'll have to think of something else to say to make it a hat trick. I'll get on that ASAP..
LOLOL, too funny pattar
- Jun 8, 2016
- 16,118
- 113
This has been a good discussion.
Since we're defining terms: I like open-yet-back better than forward-yet-back.
Open-yet-back means as you start to move out your *still-coiled* hips should start to open (around the rear/leg hip) While you are still pulling back with the upper half.
This gets you to max-coil and max stretch.
It's what one-legged means. It's what swing-puts-the-foot-down means. Yes, the front foot does land and helps and accentuates rotation, sometimes with a front leg block but sometimes the force of rotation causes the front foot to roll-over. You can see both in good hitters. And the extent of either is why sometimes a good swing looks like it has a bit of squish the bug in it.
At open-yet-back/max-coil/max-stretch and with all the slack out the launch is executed -- and yes I know this is very TM-centric -- when the hand-pivot launches the barrel rearward and the leg snaps forward.
That action is the only way in my view that you can truly get hips before hands without forcing it with some kind of non-leveraged two-legged elvis/scissor move.
Finally, and I defined these terms in my eyes in an earlier post, rearward launch/early bat speed means that you can execute all this and STILL abort it and take a pitch.
I use turn-the-barrel as a concept, but really I think a better description would be work-the-handle (or torque). I like Tewk's old demo that the swing is a barrel turn performed at the rear shoulder that is over like *that*!
Yes, a lot of this is phrasing that I like is from TM. I think he has done a good and unique job of describing *actions* in new ways. I'm not a TM disciple. Yes he can be obnoxious online. If you reach out to him he is both extremely generous and very direct (but not obnoxious) and protective of his terms and ideas. He helped me understand his concept of hip slip which I find useful. But I also contended it is a confusing teach to young hitters. He strongly disagreed lol.
That said, I still use 'live and independent hands' as a cue, from RVP-days for crissakes. I like tip and rip. I like palm-up palm-down. I like what I see from Matt Antonelli on Youtube, who I think combines a life in MiL and MLB with some new-thinking to create really good cues and demos.
I agree with W=W that what Judge is doing *is* overbaked. But it's been effective and if the no-stride can cut down on strike-outs it could yield an MVP season. He's very pre-set and often holds the 12-6 past contact. Trout does the 12-6/no extension thing at times too. I also think that although what Judge does *is* different in some ways than other high-level MLB swings, there are also important commonalities.
There's an agenda war going on as part of this conversation, largely unstated. But you know the sides and players if you've been around enough. I find that war boring and monotonous and is why I don't lurk at BBD anymore. I like to come here and share some things that helped me and kids I've coached as I've filtered through all these discussions for a very long time now. Maybe it will help some coach or dad. If it doesn't resonate, no harm/no foul.
Since we're defining terms: I like open-yet-back better than forward-yet-back.
Open-yet-back means as you start to move out your *still-coiled* hips should start to open (around the rear/leg hip) While you are still pulling back with the upper half.
This gets you to max-coil and max stretch.
It's what one-legged means. It's what swing-puts-the-foot-down means. Yes, the front foot does land and helps and accentuates rotation, sometimes with a front leg block but sometimes the force of rotation causes the front foot to roll-over. You can see both in good hitters. And the extent of either is why sometimes a good swing looks like it has a bit of squish the bug in it.
At open-yet-back/max-coil/max-stretch and with all the slack out the launch is executed -- and yes I know this is very TM-centric -- when the hand-pivot launches the barrel rearward and the leg snaps forward.
That action is the only way in my view that you can truly get hips before hands without forcing it with some kind of non-leveraged two-legged elvis/scissor move.
Finally, and I defined these terms in my eyes in an earlier post, rearward launch/early bat speed means that you can execute all this and STILL abort it and take a pitch.
I use turn-the-barrel as a concept, but really I think a better description would be work-the-handle (or torque). I like Tewk's old demo that the swing is a barrel turn performed at the rear shoulder that is over like *that*!
Yes, a lot of this is phrasing that I like is from TM. I think he has done a good and unique job of describing *actions* in new ways. I'm not a TM disciple. Yes he can be obnoxious online. If you reach out to him he is both extremely generous and very direct (but not obnoxious) and protective of his terms and ideas. He helped me understand his concept of hip slip which I find useful. But I also contended it is a confusing teach to young hitters. He strongly disagreed lol.
That said, I still use 'live and independent hands' as a cue, from RVP-days for crissakes. I like tip and rip. I like palm-up palm-down. I like what I see from Matt Antonelli on Youtube, who I think combines a life in MiL and MLB with some new-thinking to create really good cues and demos.
I agree with W=W that what Judge is doing *is* overbaked. But it's been effective and if the no-stride can cut down on strike-outs it could yield an MVP season. He's very pre-set and often holds the 12-6 past contact. Trout does the 12-6/no extension thing at times too. I also think that although what Judge does *is* different in some ways than other high-level MLB swings, there are also important commonalities.
There's an agenda war going on as part of this conversation, largely unstated. But you know the sides and players if you've been around enough. I find that war boring and monotonous and is why I don't lurk at BBD anymore. I like to come here and share some things that helped me and kids I've coached as I've filtered through all these discussions for a very long time now. Maybe it will help some coach or dad. If it doesn't resonate, no harm/no foul.
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Figures a Canadian would find that amusing
LOL, not just a Canadian, an avid hockey fan. Isn't it great to be a sports fan right now? March madness, NHL & NBA playoffs around the corner, and baseball season just about to begin... and because I'm in Canada I get to see my DD play ball the later end of April (which trumps everything else)
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Spot on!
Well to be more clear ... the lead-arm angle is a 'function' of the torso tilt ... it is not 100% dependent on the body tilt.
It's why performing a lot of front toss, while working on body angling, can help build a solid productive hitter.
- Jun 8, 2016
- 16,118
- 113
TBH not a big hockey fan. I'll watch the Bruins in the playoffs but that is about it. Even though I am from MA, the part of MA I am from (Southeastern) is not a big hockey area.
- Apr 11, 2015
- 877
- 63
Kudos to Matt for presenting the info as if it's his, and/or new...but there's not a single thing in there that isn't/wasn't from HI ten years ago...the SnF drill, one legged, TTB, palm up, the list goes on.
Btw, I love what Matt's doing and teaching in his Youtube videos, but just find it a bit humorous that some who disparage Rich's words/work, like what Matt is teaching/saying...when Matt is dang nearly parroting/demoing word for word, action for action Rich's and others earlier work.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Herein lies the biggest problem of discussing hitting on an Internet forum...people write something that they don't actually mean, but say or use in a general sense that they then need to explain the exact nuances of in person to a student or if they were talking to someone in person.
Example: This is the first time I've heard you say that when you say 50/50 weight shift with the COM into or at the launch position...that you don't really mean a 50/50 COM at the launch position. You then go on to write that a hitter should, "maintain the load in your back leg to stay back" as part of your teachings or understanding of the swing, which is basically all that is meant by the term of being "one legged", yet you absolutely despise that term.
That said, are you, I, and others really any different in what we're teaching when it comes to weight transfer, then shift in the swing? We all seem to agree that more weight is "back" in or at the launch position ("not get to a 50/50" or anything "forward" of that), we all seem to agree that the weight/load should be in "your back (one) leg to stay back", but yet you argue that we're not on the same page when it comes to that...and honestly, until you said today that you "don't really mean a 50/50" I thought we weren't also. But now I'm beginning to think at least in that part of the swing sequence we're all pretty much saying the same things, just with a little bit different descriptive words is all.
So now I have to wonder if we were to get together in person, would our preferred bat paths be the same, but simply because of the inherent limitations of the written word of these forums...we're more or less arguing about the thing(s) we're all really teaching or doing the same. Hmmm...View attachment 13992
I appreciate the clarity.
I guess when I promote 'gather' and 'hover' then I am promoting being 'one legged'.
Stay in your legs!
Have any of you ever tried a low tee drill, I mean very low(off a beer can or 500ml pop bottle) to really help a hitter understand torso tilt, getting vertical to really get behind and through the ball? If so, did it help explain/promote torso tilt and it's advantages
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