where did the hellow elbow come from
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- Jul 26, 2010
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This was where I first heard it. About 2:35 in.
-W
-W
If you step back and think about it, it makes sense. Keep everything on line towards your target.
The "hello elbow" was taught for a long time. My DD started lessons in 1993, and she was taught that way. The rationale (which is wrong) was that you would get more MPHs if the wrist flipped directly toward the catcher at release.
My DD finally ended up with a really good pitching coach in about 1995. If you asked him in 1995 (and I did), he said the "hello elbow" was the correct way to finish, but he didn't push it. He was much more focused on getting a fluid motion of the body and arm.
As I've said before, I abandoned trying to teach the "hello elbow" and stopped trying to teach her a follow through. She naturally went to the IR. Her pitching coach never corrected her.
Yes...until you realize that every other throwing motion or swing motion uses IR. The big muscles of the forearm are for pronation and rotation. If you want to use those muscles, you have to use IR.
My DD finally ended up with a really good pitching coach in about 1995. If you asked him in 1995 (and I did), he said the "hello elbow" was the correct way to finish, but he didn't push it. He was much more focused on getting a fluid motion of the body and arm.
As I've said before, I abandoned trying to teach the "hello elbow" and stopped trying to teach her a follow through. She naturally went to the IR. Her pitching coach never corrected her.
Yes...until you realize that every other throwing motion or swing motion uses IR. The big muscles of the forearm are for pronation and rotation. If you want to use those muscles, you have to use IR.
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- Jul 26, 2010
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The problem with teaching "hello elbow" has very little to actually do with the arm. High speed video shows that EVERY pitcher will actually extend their arm straight towards the direction of release before applying any sort of "taught" follow through, be it hello elbow, across the body, or reaching between their legs to scratch their butt. It should be a non-teach, honestly.
The problem with "hello elbow" is the IMPLIED closing of the hips to square up to the catcher, or "slamming the door". Often when kids are taught the "hello elbow", they are facing the pitcher with their elbow straight out in front of them, humorous 90 parallel to the ground. It's very hard for a young lady to get the humorous 90 degrees to the ground while turned to the side. A pitcher should never be more then 45 degrees closed at release, and if they're focused on a nonsensical follow through, they most often end up trying to pitch "around" their hips and slamming the door. Some pitchers do this just fine and get their hand out in front of their hips and release in a correct position, and then do the closing and follow through. This happens AFTER the pitch and does NOTHING to the pitch, good or bad, however it's just pointless to teach due to the confusion. It's exasperated by the fact that a 9 year old who has not developed hips can pitch around their body just fine, and then suddenly develop issues when puberty happens. I think it's better to teach it correctly from the start (and correctly in this case is simply to not teach it).
This is the big issue for teaching something that just shouldn't be taught period. It screws up mechanics that have nothing to do with what is actually being taught.
-W
The problem with "hello elbow" is the IMPLIED closing of the hips to square up to the catcher, or "slamming the door". Often when kids are taught the "hello elbow", they are facing the pitcher with their elbow straight out in front of them, humorous 90 parallel to the ground. It's very hard for a young lady to get the humorous 90 degrees to the ground while turned to the side. A pitcher should never be more then 45 degrees closed at release, and if they're focused on a nonsensical follow through, they most often end up trying to pitch "around" their hips and slamming the door. Some pitchers do this just fine and get their hand out in front of their hips and release in a correct position, and then do the closing and follow through. This happens AFTER the pitch and does NOTHING to the pitch, good or bad, however it's just pointless to teach due to the confusion. It's exasperated by the fact that a 9 year old who has not developed hips can pitch around their body just fine, and then suddenly develop issues when puberty happens. I think it's better to teach it correctly from the start (and correctly in this case is simply to not teach it).
This is the big issue for teaching something that just shouldn't be taught period. It screws up mechanics that have nothing to do with what is actually being taught.
-W
02Crush
Way past gone
So are those who are not supporters of what is called the hello elbow not proponents of ball movement?
It would seem, and I see it weekly, that snapping the arm up immediately after release would add spin as this
is an extension of wrist snap on a FB. I am sure I will get schooled shortly with everyone's opinions on the subject.
This technique may be much less useful in other pitches with different wrist and forearm rotations but then again I am
coaching young players who are only working the FB and CU currently.
It would seem, and I see it weekly, that snapping the arm up immediately after release would add spin as this
is an extension of wrist snap on a FB. I am sure I will get schooled shortly with everyone's opinions on the subject.
This technique may be much less useful in other pitches with different wrist and forearm rotations but then again I am
coaching young players who are only working the FB and CU currently.
IR makes so much sense to me because I come from a cricket background where I bowled (cricket equivalent of a pitcher) wrist spin.
'wrist spinners' and 'finger spinners' are so called 'slow bowlers' and rely on spin and ball flight which seems to work best at about 70-85 km/h versus fast bowlers who average 120km to 150 kph. These names for spinners are somewhat inaccurate as neither technique relies on the wrist or fingers to impart the majority of the spin:
"Wrist spin: A wrist spin delivery is released with the arm held in a fully pronated position, with the fingers on the inside of the ball (to the left for a right-handed bowler). If this pronated position is maintained through the release, the fingers will naturally cut down the side of the ball and produce an anti-clockwise spin."
Wrist spinners add additional spin by either the active pronation of the arm from an initially supinated position just before the ball is released, and the extension of the wrist at the moment of release. Both techniques increase the effect of the cutting mechanism. The slower a spin bowler delivers the ball, the more actively he must attempt to impart spin onto it in order to maintain the same rate of revolution."
Finger spin is just the opposite to the above.
So how much spin does the arm being actively rotated impart: Wrist spin videos from two of the best.
Can a ball spin anymore? - YouTube[/video]
Don't worry about what they are all getting excited about - just think about exactly how hard that ball is spinning when it hits the ground (cricket balls have straight seams so they don't get the amount of movement in the air you get from softballs/baseballs).
Same here. This guy is a bit of a physical freak however look at that arm rotating and look hard the ball is spinning in slow motion (and then at full speed)/ Especially check the footage from :36 onwards - his arm looks to almost completely rotate around during the delivery.
I think of fastpitch the same way. You can add to the spin and control it in various ways, but the big spin speed rotation and direction comes from the arm whip and arm rotation. You can effect the spin and movement by grip, finger movement, release points, speed - and I am sure wrist action adds as well as the end of the whip - but I look at these an 'enhancements' - not the main spin generator for the pitch.
'wrist spinners' and 'finger spinners' are so called 'slow bowlers' and rely on spin and ball flight which seems to work best at about 70-85 km/h versus fast bowlers who average 120km to 150 kph. These names for spinners are somewhat inaccurate as neither technique relies on the wrist or fingers to impart the majority of the spin:
"Wrist spin: A wrist spin delivery is released with the arm held in a fully pronated position, with the fingers on the inside of the ball (to the left for a right-handed bowler). If this pronated position is maintained through the release, the fingers will naturally cut down the side of the ball and produce an anti-clockwise spin."
Wrist spinners add additional spin by either the active pronation of the arm from an initially supinated position just before the ball is released, and the extension of the wrist at the moment of release. Both techniques increase the effect of the cutting mechanism. The slower a spin bowler delivers the ball, the more actively he must attempt to impart spin onto it in order to maintain the same rate of revolution."
Finger spin is just the opposite to the above.
So how much spin does the arm being actively rotated impart: Wrist spin videos from two of the best.
Can a ball spin anymore? - YouTube[/video]
Don't worry about what they are all getting excited about - just think about exactly how hard that ball is spinning when it hits the ground (cricket balls have straight seams so they don't get the amount of movement in the air you get from softballs/baseballs).
Same here. This guy is a bit of a physical freak however look at that arm rotating and look hard the ball is spinning in slow motion (and then at full speed)/ Especially check the footage from :36 onwards - his arm looks to almost completely rotate around during the delivery.
I think of fastpitch the same way. You can add to the spin and control it in various ways, but the big spin speed rotation and direction comes from the arm whip and arm rotation. You can effect the spin and movement by grip, finger movement, release points, speed - and I am sure wrist action adds as well as the end of the whip - but I look at these an 'enhancements' - not the main spin generator for the pitch.
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02Crush
Way past gone
@ marriard as a new developing fan of Cricket this was a cool way to give perspective to spin.
I will play the opposite card just for the sake of debate....
When throwing overhand in any sport you have an advantage of being able to crank the shoulders around to hurl the ball. This does seem to give a slight advantage to spinning the ball. Versus fastpitch where if you must get the hips and shoulders (entire body) to close and open again to keep the ball moving fast through the motion. The body, in a way is in the way of developing maximum whip. I am not an expert but throwing it out there to spark conversation.
@ screwball thanks. I better understand the term Hello Elbow to mean the overly exaggerated flipping upward of the forearm rather than any slight motion upward. We tell out girls to that "if" they were to bend their elbow it is fine after the wrist snap. I do not really care about what the follow through looks like just that they keep the arm long through the release and snap.
I will play the opposite card just for the sake of debate....
When throwing overhand in any sport you have an advantage of being able to crank the shoulders around to hurl the ball. This does seem to give a slight advantage to spinning the ball. Versus fastpitch where if you must get the hips and shoulders (entire body) to close and open again to keep the ball moving fast through the motion. The body, in a way is in the way of developing maximum whip. I am not an expert but throwing it out there to spark conversation.
@ screwball thanks. I better understand the term Hello Elbow to mean the overly exaggerated flipping upward of the forearm rather than any slight motion upward. We tell out girls to that "if" they were to bend their elbow it is fine after the wrist snap. I do not really care about what the follow through looks like just that they keep the arm long through the release and snap.
- Jul 26, 2010
- 3,553
- 0
02Crush,
A pitch is released at the pitchers rear thigh. The longer the arm is at this point, plus the amount of "whip" in the arm (whip will shorten the arm somewhat, but not much) is what will produce the best speed at release. The fingers will "peel" the ball. The pitch is released long before there is any "follow through" such as pulling the arm upwards. Whatever happens after the ball is no longer in contact with the pitchers fingers has no effect on the pitch.
You're talking smoke and mirrors.
-W
A pitch is released at the pitchers rear thigh. The longer the arm is at this point, plus the amount of "whip" in the arm (whip will shorten the arm somewhat, but not much) is what will produce the best speed at release. The fingers will "peel" the ball. The pitch is released long before there is any "follow through" such as pulling the arm upwards. Whatever happens after the ball is no longer in contact with the pitchers fingers has no effect on the pitch.
You're talking smoke and mirrors.
-W
- Jan 25, 2011
- 2,278
- 38
02Crush,Like what starsnuffer said,the ball is gone before anything is done by the hello elbow,or anything else with the elbow.I have seen girls pitch the ball and the ball is long gone then they flip their elbow in the old hello elbow,they could flip and smack their head.I really have to say that the hello elbow is one of the biggest waste of energy,right up there with watching girls take practice swings and hit themselfs in the back with the bat.Now I'am not knocking you for the way you where teaching pitching,we all start somewhere but welcome to the site.
