When does the look back rule take effect?

[MTR]

This is why I say the rule is misunderstood. If you read the rule, her 'stopping' should not have been a violation. The umpires judgement of whether she did or not does not change the rule. Obviously, we both misunderstood the rule.

But stopping IS a violation. You seem to just not accept that the umpire believe the turn was a stop. Again, umpires are trained to look at player's actions differently.

Are some umpires too quick? Yeah, I would agree with that, but the best way to avoid that is to just not screw around. If I had my druthers, I'd get rid of the rule. It is archaic and absolutely useless to the game of softball.

 

[FPMark]

Okay, I concede that she stopped, whether in reality or by umpires judgement. Rule 8 sect. 7T 1, states; "WHILE the pitcher has controll of the ball within the 8 foot radius of the pitcher's plate, the runner MAY stop ONCE but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base." her stopping was legal according to the rule.

I am with you on doing away with the look back rule, it's way too confusing for a worthless, out dated rule.

 

[MTR]

Okay, I concede that she stopped, whether in reality or by umpires judgement. Rule 8 sect. 7T 1, states; "WHILE the pitcher has controll of the ball within the 8 foot radius of the pitcher's plate, the runner MAY stop ONCE but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base." her stopping was legal according to the rule.

Maybe I'm not reading your play correctly. I'm thinking pitcher receives ball, runner begins return to base (that is stop one), runner in returning pivots and moonwalks last two steps. I'm thinking the pivot was what the umpire determined to be a second stop.

I am with you on doing away with the look back rule, it's way too confusing for a worthless, out dated rule.

Last year I submitted a rule change to soften the effect of an LBR violation by eliminating the out. Most FP folks just stood there and scratched their head as too many, WAY TOO MANY are entrenched with the myth that FP is a "live ball" game and it should never be stopped by a "time" call unless requested. Obviously, they ain't......well, never mind. Too many followers and not enough thinkers in this game.

 

[darken]

Last year I submitted a rule change to soften the effect of an LBR violation by eliminating the out.

MTR, I'm curious as to what you proposed the penalty to be?

In my opinion, the LBR is a good rule to guard against players dancing a couple of feet off the bases and getting back to the base to allow the pitcher to throw and to keep the game moving. The problem is - and this thread is evidence - the enforcement is inconsistant at best and arbitrary at worst.

-D

 

[Amy in AZ.]

I don't find it hard to understand, but some umps tend to confuse things when they don't let you round a base.

I played prior to the circle and this rule. It was called the Look Back Rule, prior to the circle being used and they kept the name. Before the use of the circle, the pitcher had to look at every runner on base. You then had to return to the base. If she didn't look at you, you could stand off the base. Oh, and the pitcher had to look at you while she was on the rubber.

 

[MTR]

MTR, I'm curious as to what you proposed the penalty to be?

No penalty, just have the umpire kill the ball and move on with the game. This rule was designed to be a game-control tool to avoid all the cat-and-mouse games. It wasn't designed to be a strategy or a "gotcha" rule.

In my opinion, the LBR is a good rule to guard against players dancing a couple of feet off the bases and getting back to the base to allow the pitcher to throw and to keep the game moving. The problem is - and this thread is evidence - the enforcement is inconsistant at best and arbitrary at worst.

The SP game has it right. What is supposed to happen when the pitcher gets the ball in the vicinity of the pitcher's plate? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Yes, that is correct, NOTHING! So why not just allow everything to just go on as it is, but when all obvious play is completed, just kill the ball and move on with the game.

 

[ElmoBlatch]

A couple of weeks ago I was working an indoor tournament. Batter receives ball four, hustles to first, rounds the bag toward second base, stops, then immediately returns to first.

Defensive coach argues that she can't do that! I explain that the runner is allowed to stop and return. Coach then says, "But she can't do that on a walk!".

...sigh....

So, to be clear, if the pitcher gets the ball in the circle before the walked batter reaches first base, the batter/runner IS allowed to round first, stop once, and then return to first?

 

[Amy in AZ.]

Yes. Or she can keep on going.

That is why I wouldn't want the play killed when the pitcher has the ball. It was an awful rule in slow pitch, for me. Umps were killing the play, when the ball got to the infield.

 

[FPMark]

Amy... The play is already called dead by virtue of the lookback rule. Doing away with the rule would not mean that time would be called in the middle of a play (if runners are still running the play is not over even if they run through all the bases, just as they can now), it would mean that as soon as they stopped, time would be called and runners would have to return to the base without fear of doing some minor infraction that may be interpreted as a reason for the ump to call them out.

If the ball were truely 'live' then runners would be allowed to steal at any time, play off the base (like BB), and whether the pitcher had the ball or not would mean nothing. The LBR is nothing more than calling time without calling time. And calling runners out on minor technecalities that have no significance in the game. Not to mention that it is widely misinterpreted by coaches and umpires alike.

ElmoBlatch...YES,...and she can keep going to 2nd, 3rd, and home if she wants, or round any base, stop, and go immediatly back. The runner 'may stop once' while the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle. She could actually round 1st, stop, then go to second. But if she did, she couldn't round 2nd and stop again unless she wanted to be called out for the LBR.

Sorry about the rant, but i'm starting to see the logic of MTR's wanting to do away with the rule...

 

[Amy in AZ.]

But, as the current rule is, if the pitcher does not have control of the ball, we can go. For instance, she lays the ball down to tie her shoe.