Understanding the real "enemy"

[Tewks]

My mom coached me until I was 13. She also owned a facility with Sam Horn - former MLB player - for 7 years. She was at my facility the other night and I let her talk to my players and they were very responsive to what she had to say. A woman's perspective on what the hips are doing can be drastically different than a male's perspective. My mother has proven to be a great resource to discuss this topic for use with my male and female hitters. Finding the right words, drills, exercises, etc to make any athlete feel something is the challenge of instruction and teaching.

 

[lhowser]

Hitter says:

Elbows, knob, knob parallel to contact and release the barrel to the ball....pretty simple

Great post by the way but could you clarify this -

knob parallel to contact

Does that mean parallel to the pitch? or parallel to the eventual bat position at point of contact perpendicular to the pitch.

In other words the difference in Tewks demonstration on another thread between "knob to the ball" vs "barrel to the ball"?

 

[Hitter]

Hitter says:


Great post by the way but could you clarify this -


Does that mean parallel to the pitch? or parallel to the eventual bat position at point of contact perpendicular to the pitch.

In other words the difference in Tewks demonstration on another thread between "knob to the ball" vs "barrel to the ball"?

Ihowser

Think of between your toes to home plate is a lane and the knob is inside the path of the ball, NOT KNOB TO THE BALL, then the knob is parallel to the ball and we release the barrel to the ball based on the balls depth in box or how far the ball traveled and location of the pitch.

Thanks Howard

 

[Chris O'Leary]

...we release the barrel to the ball...

IMO, this is a critical phrase and the right way to characterize what happens in a good swing.

This doesn't involve any firing of the wrists.

 

[RayR]

You may be the minority of knowing how, so what has happened to the rest of our male coaches that come here to pontificate their knowledge of the swing and yet can not teach a GIRL how to throw or shift their weight?

Thanks Howard

I have been teaching more throwing during my hitting lessons recently. Using your feet/legs correctly for different throws is critical. I do a progression of throws starting with a throw behind (receiving a throw at 1B and popping the feet to throw to 2B), then receiving a relay throw from the OF and crow hopping to turn and throw home and finally an OF crow hop throw. It is amazing how harder the girls throw when they get the footwork down.

 

[tom.guerry]

I think howard and wellphyt are on the same page.

My personal belief (discussed over and over for years here and elsewhere in great detail) has been that the preparation for throwing and swinging starts and proceeds with the same mechanical sequence:

inward turn
hip cock
hand cock
rubberbandwinding,

at this point they diverge with forearm twist/elbow rotation and shoulder tilt taking the barrel to the ball (not the knob to the ball, see Tewks video) as the rear hip thrusts in the swing whereas in the throw, the weight goes from back to front laying back the throwing arm then whipping it as the torso turns forward, landing on a firm flexed front leg.

the rear arm sequence is the same in both and this is a key to learning the throw and swing from the beginning to middle ("forward chaining"), and the front leg mirrors the rear arm action:

inward turn - hands gather come in toward center/bellybutton

hip cock - rear arm internal rotation

hand cock - rear arm abduction/extension

windrubber band - rear arm externally rotates


This info is well presented for throwing by Hodge in his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape and drills.

Backward chaining drills and supporting information for throwing, teaching the motion from the end back to the middle is best described by Nyman in his setpro EBOOK and by Wolforth who incorporates the same info in his comprehensive throwing program at pitchingcentral.com.

The throw and swing have the same type of balance/hip cock/weight shift as well, similar to the way wellphyt has described with the Williams hip action and the Epstein dynamic balance info. AT H-I this is well described as rear leg/single leg/back leg hitting where the hip thrust then puts the front foot down prepared for by a well balance load/coil/stretch.

Teaching by both forward and backward chaining is very effective.

I think these mechanical sequences/synch/patterns/balance are first learned in throw and then carried over to the swing.

 

[Cannonball]

Tom, the earth may be ready for the New Madrid Fault to go again. You and I agreed on something. BTW, the last time the New Madrid Fault moved, the Mississippi River flowed backwards and the Church Bells rang in Boston.

 

[PEPPERS]

I have been teaching more throwing during my hitting lessons recently. Using your feet/legs correctly for different throws is critical. I do a progression of throws starting with a throw behind (receiving a throw at 1B and popping the feet to throw to 2B), then receiving a relay throw from the OF and crow hopping to turn and throw home and finally an OF crow hop throw. It is amazing how harder the girls throw when they get the footwork down.

I always taught throwing the way we were shown at the Got Bustos clinic I never related this to hitting until Howard explained it here and she explained and demonstrated it. I only taught it for correct throwing mechanics.

I learned from Howard post and at the clinic how important balance is in both aspects of the game.

 

[SBFAMILY]

I took every girl on our high school varsity and JV thru RVP on hitting . Howard talks about using mirrors with Females.. I firmly believe that till they actually see themself swing and what it should look like you can talk yourself to death. Girls must be shown and want to see it! None of them was releasing the back side, correctly and now everyone of them understands why throwing a ball and hitting a ball are related. l

 

[Wellphyt]

I don't see anything in Howard's post that really contradicts a MLB Swing. In fact, his description could be aligned with many philosophies with the exception that Howard is asserting that coaches and parent use the term balance without putting emphasis on it. In his description, he is then discussing angles which is no different than talking about various "tilts." I happen to agree with Howard that the phisology of the female body might necessitate many of us looking again at how we approach balance. Howard suggest, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that those that want to template an ideal elite swing for a MLB Player might have trouble placing that exact template on female hitters. Howard never said that female hitters can not produce a high level swing. As has occurred on other sites, I don't any of us can conclude that we teach the MLB Swing. I know this is a huge ongoing argument. High level, imo, is exactly what all of us attempt to teach and any higher claims are simply that.

I didn't see anything in my post that indicated Howard's post contradicted a MLB swing. He made reference to the MLB swing and I referenced the fact that many fastpitch coaches are on record as saying the fastpitch swing should be the same as the MLB swing. My post really wasn't about Howard. It was about my general view of where I see fastpitch hitting today.

Howard mentions feeling like the Anti-Christ at times, to which I say, "Welcome to the club". I get the same feeling from the veteran fastpitch coaches in my area who claim they know how to teach girls to hit. Howard seems frustrated with people who use MLB players as blueprints and disagrees with that approach. Fine. I have no problem with that. As I've said many times on here, IMO fastpitch hitting is in transition. However I get equally frustrated with the fastpitch community in general (not saying Howard, this isn't about Howard, just because Howard triggers a thought in my head doesn't mean it's about Howard), when they say the fastpitch and MLB swings should be the same, and then rail against those of us who use MLB players as blueprints.

Don Slaught's/Candrea's RVP Pro material is based on the swings of MLB players. Katie Cochran said in an interview two years ago that she has studied Ted Williams since the age of 11. She carries a copy of Ted's Science of Hitting book with her in her back pack. Many college programs have purchased Epstein's materials over the past several years. It would seem that players and coaches in fastpitch are seeking out material on the MLB swing. IMO, the evidence suggest, that studying the MLB swing and applying it to fastpitch isn't as crazy as some might make it out to be. In fact, one could easily argue that it's becoming the norm.

The title of this thread is "Understanding the Real Enemy". I have long felt that many coaches and instructors (not Howard, this isn't about Howard) in fastpitch are using some of the terminology associated with the MLB swing, yet they don't teach the mechanics to match the rhetoric. I believe these people are detrimental to the progress being made in fastpitch hitting today.

We have an instructor in my area that promotes the RVP Pro system on her website, complete with pictures of Pujols. Yet she teaches the typical hands to the ball stuff. Of course her students think they're learning to swing similar to Pujols or a MLB player.

My favorite example of highjacked terminology is the term "Hitting in a Long Zone". Mankin discusses what hitting in a long zone , looks like in this youtube clip YouTube - MrBatSpeed's Channel

IMO it’s unimportant if you agree with Mankin’s explanation of how MLB players hit in a long zone. The important point for me is that the best players in MLB do something different with their hands and forearms which allow them to hit in a long zone. I see fastpitch players like Bustos using their hands and forearms in a similar fashion.

IMO, the mechanics needed to hit in a long zone aren’t well understood in the fastpitch community. I say this because it’s borderline sacrilege in the fastpitch community to say that you don’t believe a fastpitch player’s swing like Megan Bush’s is high level on the scale of a Bustos or Pujols. I have zero problems with those who like Megan Bush' swing. It makes no difference to me. What frustrates me are those who like Megan Bush's swing and then turn around and say that they believe in the concept of hitting in a long zone.

As long as the fastpitch community insists on using terminology associated with MLB hitting greats like Williams and Pujols, then I think it’s reasonable to use these players as templates. As Epstein points out in his comments pertaining to the Mcqwire article, Pujols is known for his ability to keep the barrel in the hitting zone for 4-5 foot. IMO, a female athlete can easily learn to work their hands and forearms similar to Pujols. If they do, I believe they will increase the amount of time the barrel is in the hitting zone. I think that’s a big deal and will help most players become better hitters. I know it’s helping my DD.

I find it very difficult to find clips of fastpitch players that hit in a long zone. Bustos being one of the few I have on my computer. I find it easier to use MLB players as blueprints for the technique part of the swing.

On the issue of balance, I think Howard makes some good points and I would agree that in this area there can be differences between males and females. On the issue of how MLB players hold their hands while in their stance, position their feet in the batters box, or grip the bat; those are all style items that will vary from player to player.

Epstein does an amazing computer generated demonstration of the difference between style and technique. Epstein overlays two computer generated stick figures of Jimmy Foxx and Ted Williams. The stick figures track each player’s swing starting from their batting stance all the way to their follow through. When he starts the stick figures in motion, they don’t match at all. The players had totally different stances, handsets etc. But, as the stick figures approach toe touch, the stick figures align themselves almost perfectly, one on top of the other. For me it was a real eye opener.

Hillhouse mentions something similar, where someone used RVP Pro to compare him to Osterman. Even though Bll and Cat use two totally different styles; they each get into similar positions at key points in the pitching motion.

For those of us who choose to use MLB players as blueprints, that's what we're talking about. If a player wants to hit in a long zone, they have to move their hands and forearms in a certain way to make that happen. As Hillhosue would say, 'It's not my rule, it's just the way the body is designed to work' (paraphrasing).