Understanding the real "enemy"

[cartersball]

3 DD, you are right in that if you started keeping a list of drills, ideas, etc. from various posters who's ideas make sense to you, then you can fit those drill, concepts into a format to coach our child/team. That is what I did so many years ago. I still use some drills I used in the early 80s. I've incorporated others I've learned from recent years. Again, they have to make sense to you in order for you to pass them on to your players. If you can create a "base" for your players then you've made a good start. I'm sure you know coaches in your area that you respect. Run those ideas past them and then add or detract your thoughts from there. I have a list that I created a long time ago. I shared that with those that agreed and didn't agree with me. It helped me in the process of developing a base for my child. Then, when I wanted to add some drill, I had to think about how that drill worked in the context of what I thought I believed. Also, as you know, not all players will need all drills. So, if you have a good library as you are suggesting, then, you have something to fall back on to help that one player that might need some different drill.

I also agree that Cartersball, Mark, Tewks, and Hitter all provide different thoughts on the swing and some really good ideas on how to work with hitters. While they all aren't in agreement, you can decide what you think works best for you. I'd mention that BoardMember isn't posting as much as he was. He has been a valuable source of information for my child. BM, since your email, BB has hit 13 balls out in scrimmages. First game is this week. Thanks a bunch!

Cannonball,
I seem to recall a list you had created some time ago, and if I am not mistaken it was posted here recently. I think this would be an excellent beginning point to the list. Your current list could provide something of a base for a group agreement list.
BTW, glad to hear BB is playing and doing well. I remember reading in another thread, I think in the pitching forum that she sustained an injury and I was wondering if she had gotten better. Lot's of injuries this season thus far. Boomers LL team had three on the DL up until this past Thursday, with him included (medial apophysitis/Little Leaguer's elbow), so we are glad to be getting back into things even if only a week before the season.

 

[3DD'sDAD]

"I also agree that Cartersball, Mark, Tewks, and Hitter all provide different thoughts on the swing and some really good ideas on how to work with hitters. While they all aren't in agreement, you can decide what you think works best for you. I'd mention that BoardMember isn't posting as much as he was. He has been a valuable source of information for my child. BM, since your email, BB has hit 13 balls out in scrimmages. First game is this week. Thanks a bunch!"

Sorry Boardmember, I left you off of the list, totally by mistake. Cannonball is absolutley correct about you being a valuable resource. Too bad really that we don't have access to coaches such as the group mentioned (including BM of course!) here in southern Ontario. I haven't been able to find any yet. Going to a practice with DD's PC today and perhaps she might be able to shed some light.

 

[PEPPERS]

I try to attend as many clinics as possible if they go over something we already do then it reinforces that we are on the correct path. If I learn something new and I think it helps the kids, I try it myself. If it seems to be helpful I add it to what we are doing.

My daughter likes her HS coach and he is a good guy, he played baseball 20 years ago and this is how he coaches. Hitting from a pitching machine set on high the first practice she hit 2 over the fence 3 off the fence the machine pitched one outside and she hit a line drive down the line and bounced off the fence, he takes her aside and tells her what she was doing wrong. It was squash the bug, swing down at the ball and hands to the ball, it took months to get her swing back again after school ball. He likes ground balls, slapping and bunting. The first 5 games the team scored one run and it was a home run. My daughter pitched, but he seldom let her bat according to him she did not fit into his scheme.

3DD,sDAD I agree with all the fine people on this board have a great deal offer I appreciate them and others who take the time to offer their advice.

 

[CoachKevin]

I was in a discussion with another coach the other night on hitting. I was telling him that we, as coaches, really need to watch what cues we say to the kids. I went on to say that I had heard him during one of his practices tell the girls to keep your weight back. I asked him to explain what he meant by that, and to demonstrate. Of course it was squish the bug, but even with that he really didn't keep all his weight back. I had him go to Epstein's and O'Leary's sites to read and look around. Yesterday he wrote back to me and said, well that looks very interesting, but I'm going to stick with the tried and true method....

BTW, this was the exact words from the HS coach I mentioned earlier. The HS team has scored a total of 5 runs in 4 games and are 1-3.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I'm in the middle of a pretty interesting experience that falls under what I call the, "Very nice. We change everything," phenomenon.

Two months ago a D-1 college baseball player came to me on the down low. He hit in the very high 3s at one school and was recruited to play at another school. His coaches then totally revamped his swing and approach (standard linear, extension garbage) and he ended up hitting in the mid 2s last year. He decided to revert to his old swing and approach and came to me for a once-over (without the knowledge of his coaches). I told him that what he was taught growing up was correct, that his college coaches were wrong, and that he really shouldn't change a thing. He's now hitting in the mid 4s.

Of course this begs the question of why you would recruit a guy because you were impressed by his bat and then try to totally change him.

In general, my approach is to focus on the bottom 1/3 of the players in my lineup, not players who are already successful, because the bottom 1/3 will really determine how successful you are (at least in a league with CBO and minimum play rules).

 

[Hitter]

Ken

Your point is well taken and we just did a clinic in Wexford Pa. and met several members and some choose to participate and others who do not participate because of the disagreements and not wanting to be wrong or look stupid if they ask a question. Difficult to say what someone is thinking when it is just in type verses in person.

I found these people wanting to know more however.

We worked with 40 plus coaches Friday night and it was supposed to last 2 hours and finally after 3.5 hours our host said we have to clear out so they can clean the room!

Saturday we had two sessions for hitting with about 40 in each session and Sunday about the same!

What I find interesting is that at the coaches session and during the clinics NO ONE, not one coach or a hitter could explain or get balanced!

Yet even on this board I find it funny that some think it means nothing and has no bearing as to any differences as to male and female!

Look at your article from Juggs

"1. George Sisler—There are two basic things to hitting: (a) balance (b) timing. Everything about hitting relates to those two things."

Did he even cover how simple it is and how easy it is to teach? No! Why if it is so important?

"A hitter must have a level swing. to have a level swing, his hips and shoulders must be level throughout the swing.
To correct an upswing: Put more weight on the front foot, by doing so the front shoulder will come down and the bat will be pulled on a level plane. "

Why would I ever swing level however he told us what it looks like but not balance!

In my opinion balance and timing are glossed over as to they, the hitter, coach or parent must find it them self as it is not important enough to discuss.

I viewed it on another sight as being mocked by those who feel they are the experts in every facet of swing and the game and if you do not agree with them you are the anti Christ!

I am with Board Member on this point, that you do not need drills that are done without balance or a sense of rhythm that have to done to the extremes to get them to feel it and using mechanics you would never use in a game especially with a 10 to 14 year old girls who was never taught to throw correctly in the first place.

In 2004, we started teaching how to throw first as it was a natural lead in to weight shift for hitting and the girls hand no concept of what or how it was done. I still laugh when at clinics we watch them throw and I turn and look at a coach and laugh and say you are worried about how they hit? Then I say you should be because unless you out hit them and score more runs you will be mercied in the 5 inning because you will have no defense based on what I am seeing!

People are still doing the quick hands toss and what they do not see is the lower half mechanics are abandon just to keep up with hitting the ball! Would we ever pull the bat backwards to the starting position in a game like they do for that drill? No!

Then the timing drop drill from a step ladder or 5 gallon bucket! Never saw a ball in fast pitch dropped from heaven yet! So why practice looking up when the pitcher is in front of you?

In softball getting out of the box is huge and they do not have the time to look for the ball and there are things we can do in our hitting stance to get out of the box faster than in baseball however you are the anti Christ if you suggest teaching anything other than the MLB ELITE Swing pattern! Especially if it is a young girl and lets not forget to tear any swing a part especially if it is a girl and the swing does not look exactly like AP or Manny or some other of the 800 plus MLB players.

Why not show AP striking out or popping up or fouling a ball? Do they ever hit an "UGLY" home run? They need to have a do over in MLB and give it back so it is a perfect MLB ELITE SWING and not just some hack girl that still hit it over the fence for a home run and you happen to think it is ugly by comparison to AP or any other MLB player.

Where are the girls next level after rec ball? Travel ball maybe, high school, college and maybe if the NPF is still around that is possible! Why do the girls have to be perfect if they can still miss hit balls for home runs?

Most girls will never do it perfectly enough for the critics (mainly from baseball sites anyway) and most of the male coaches do not understand the girls or their swing or how to teach it well enough anyway in my opinion! They can not even teach them how to throw without their arms hurting anyway as we confirmed again this weekend!

We talked about carrying angle (Google it yourself) differences this weekend and I picked out one that was really angled verses another girl who looked almost the same as a male to angle. Both threw very differently and after a while we had the girl with the huge difference in angle throwing very well. Did I mention she had a learning dis ability and was deaf in one ear and had a short attention span? She also has a vision problem as both eyes do not move together or what is termed accommodation which use the 6 extra ocular muscles? We gave Mom some advice and pointed her in the right direction to get her help. While I was talking to her the daughter was looking up at the ceiling and turning and smiling in her own world. She hit very well and we made sure she was not getting too much information at each at bat! You can not make stuff up like this however you can help then have more fun while learning!

At the clinic over the weekend we stressed each persons body and body type must be fitted for THEIR swing and one size does not fit all. However elements with in the swing are in our opinion similar enough to teach as group and easy to customize for your use.

We teach very simply that we get balanced first by bending at the waist and softening the knees and feel your stride will probably not be much further than the width of your fielding stance for most people and understand their are exceptions and that is style verses mechanics.

You can either separate your hands rearward or walk away from your hands as it takes a little more athleticism to walk away verses separate rearward in our opinion. Crystl stressed do not try to copy me however look at how I get to the point of contact and that I do try to land on the inside side edge of my front foot to allow my weight to continue forward until I make a decision to swing or not to swing!

She went on to say look at how we use eversion to balance in our stance and drive off the back toe and thrust our hips forward to rotation. We had a hitter volunteer to take off their shoes and socks so the could actually see eversion on both feet and see how the big toe discolors around the big toe and when we stride to to touch how the front knee is flexed and the baby toe is off the ground.

Can you step flat footed and be successful? Yes! It takes more athleticism to do it however it can be done!

Elbows, knob, knob parallel to contact and release the barrel to the ball....pretty simple in the clinic according to the feed back from the hitters parents and coaches after you lay the foundation which always seems to be by passed for some reason in my opinion!

The trouble with hitting is everyone wants to be right and re invent the swing or tag it with a new term or cue and consider them self one step further ahead than the other person and the kids suffer and some one just made more money doing it! In my opinion!

Thanks Howard

 

[Cannonball]

Howard, that is a TOP NOTCH POST!

 

[Wellphyt]

Just a reminder that many of the top coaches in fastpitch, including Enquist and Candrea have stated that the fastpitch swing should be the same as the MLB swing. Clearly not everyone in fastpitch is on board, which is fine. For those of us who are on board, we genuinely believe that the MLB swing has advantages over the traditional fastpitch swing. We use the MLB swing as a blueprint to teach from, which is not the same as saying that an amatuer fastpitch hitter is expected to swing as good as a professional MLB player making millions of dollars.

We also are well aware that we are going against years of fastpitch tradition. I'm reminded of this fact every week where we play.

 

[Cannonball]

I don't see anything in Howard's post that really contradicts a MLB Swing. In fact, his description could be aligned with many philosophies with the exception that Howard is asserting that coaches and parent use the term balance without putting emphasis on it. In his description, he is then discussing angles which is no different than talking about various "tilts." I happen to agree with Howard that the phisology of the female body might necessitate many of us looking again at how we approach balance. Howard suggest, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that those that want to template an ideal elite swing for a MLB Player might have trouble placing that exact template on female hitters. Howard never said that female hitters can not produce a high level swing. As has occurred on other sites, I don't any of us can conclude that we teach the MLB Swing. I know this is a hugh ongoing argument. High level, imo, is exactly what all of us attempt to teach and any higher claims are simply that.

 

[Hitter]

Just a reminder that many of the top coaches in fastpitch, including Enquist and Candrea have stated that the fastpitch swing should be the same as the MLB swing. Clearly not everyone in fastpitch is on board, which is fine. For those of us who are on board, we genuinely believe that the MLB swing has advantages over the traditional fastpitch swing. We use the MLB swing as a blueprint to teach from, which is not the same as saying that an amatuer fastpitch hitter is expected to swing as good as a professional MLB player making millions of dollars.

We also are well aware that we are going against years of fastpitch tradition. I'm reminded of this fact every week where we play.

Wellphyt

I am reminded every time we do a clinic of what some of these coaches know and the tradition they cling too!

What clearly makes no sense is the pointing to AP and what any other MLB player does and says it should look like this or looks like that and they can not even explain how to do it or what it feels like!

If people think Sheffield's pre swing works for them try it, or Roberto Clemente's back foot away to hit to the opposite field works for everyone, try it and do not forget Eric Davis's low hands or Greg Counsels high hands or Bagwell or Biggo's wide stance.

It worked for them and it can work for your daughter also and it is an MLB ELITE swing pattern and they made more money than me and I do not know about anyone else!

Do not forget AP has swings with the finger knuckles lined up and offset so why did that happen as I thought there was only one way?

Everyone puts their twist to it and says, "Watch this clip and see how they get their hands flat!" Look at the forearm swivel, triangle, no it is a box, no it is all rotation and no hip thrust, we are hitting off our back foot, no it was the front foot, no we bend our back leg more, no the back leg should be driving more and the head was up and no it was down and the front foot turned outward and over and the back leg came under us and was off the ground when they hit the ball!

WOW! How do you teach that!

Then we want to argue if there is any hip thrust verses rotation and throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to common sense and try to use science to explain away what we see verses a person who actually does it and discount what she thinks or feels and hit with an average of .400 plus over 10 years!

If all these coaches were so smart they would have our girls throwing like athletes verses like girls!

If your daughter can swing like AP or use the MLB swing pattern and use the blue prints then explain them to me as I use to write the procedures on how to assemble and dis assemble jet engines and I am always willing to learn something new! And if the blue print works for you, count yourself lucky as I saw 40 coaches and 160 players who did not have a clue as to how to throw or understand hand path however they all seemed to understand it and had a better foundation in less than 4 hours and they can build from there.

Substance not rhetoric statements seems to help the coaches and kids understand what they are trying to do verses what myself or anyone else tells them as to what they see an MLB player do.

The amateur swing some of our girls have paid for college to the tune of about 2.5 million dollars for 70 plus kids at D1 through NAIA and grades....they seem to find a way to pay for the kids when they stick out of the crowd in my opinion.

I will leave at this....Crystl was explaining to the hitters and parents about how she swings given the situation. I had showed the Bustos the Great clip and they could see her leaning out over the plate to hit a home run or stepping out to hit a home run or hitting a pitch above her shoulders or hitting a pitch below the knees for a home run.

She ask the crowd do you know how I train , do you know what I was thinking and trying to do to put runs on the board ?

With that she dropped a ball on the ground on a wood floor and it bounced about 4 inches off the ground and she put it to the other end of the gym about 10 feet high off the floor!

When they put the shift on for MLB ELITE players they take the walk! Routed in tradition? Yeah! Could they hit it? You tell me!

She does!

Tell us how it works and this is not directed at you Wellphyt, it is directed at anyone!

Explain it so the other parents and coaches have a clue.

At least Tweeks will take a shot at it and try it and I will take a shot at trying to explain how we teach it!

Then we do a coaches clinic and not one coach male or female can show us what balance is or how to do it. Then out of 160 kids not one hitter understands it either.

Yet we all heard Coach Candrea and Enquist say it! However, we show MLB players doing it and still no one understands how and they still throw like girls and no one understands how or why and MOST were taught by males.

You may be the minority of knowing how, so what has happened to the rest of our male coaches that come here to pontificate their knowledge of the swing and yet can not teach a GIRL how to throw or shift their weight?

Thanks Howard