Redhot - I don't know if I agree with you on this one. If a pitcher is primarily throwing a four seem, it might be very effective to throw a two seam in there occasionally to keep the batter off balance as SocalDad has suggested. I guess it depends on how much the four seam drops and how much tail the two seam breaks outside?
Two-Seam vs Four-Seam Fastball
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Redhot - I don't know if I agree with you on this one. If a pitcher is primarily throwing a four seem, it might be very effective to throw a two seam in there occasionally to keep the batter off balance as SocalDad has suggested. I guess it depends on how much the four seam drops and how much tail the two seam breaks outside?
redhotcoach
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- May 8, 2009
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Yes.... I should have written more. I think the two seam is a good pitch, almost a second pitch with just a grip change. Just as a single pitch to start with (she was 8 at the time) I felt the four seam to be better, and the hitting part is just ME. I can hit screwballs and curve balls much much easier than a drop or rise.
Well I'm the odd one out, my main grip is two seam. I was taught the basics by my mum, and she always pitched with the two seam. I love it. I've never really pitched with a four seam grip, so I can't tell you the differences (its my off season goal to get a decent four seam pitch) but I can tell you that I have a lot of natural movement with my pitch. I've had the ball zig zag before, on a normal fastball. (best response I've ever got from an umpire 'what the eff was that?')
Whenever you introduce something new, it will ALWAYS be slower. Speed is never the best indicator of something. Give her a month or two to get comfterble with the grip before using it in a game, but having a ball that is slightly slower is not a bad thing either.
Lozza - so I assume that you do not have a "drop ball" since you are using a two seam grip? Hillhouse argues that your fastball should be your drop ball. Do you know which way your two seam will go (e.g. tail in or tail out) or do you just throw it and see what happens? I'm no expert in pitching but I don't know how a pitched ball with a lot of spin can "zig zig" unless it is a low spin pitch like knuckle ball or maybe c/u that is affected by the wind?. Please explain.
I wish I knew how it happened, but it started on one side of the plate and ended on the other.
It tails out, I'm much stronger on throwing outside, then inside. (which seams to be common for this grip)
I do have a drop ball. My grip is a two seam pushed back into my palm, and I roll my hand over when I throw the pitch. Its only effective 75% of the time, but I only started learning this earlier this year.
It tails out, I'm much stronger on throwing outside, then inside. (which seams to be common for this grip)
I do have a drop ball. My grip is a two seam pushed back into my palm, and I roll my hand over when I throw the pitch. Its only effective 75% of the time, but I only started learning this earlier this year.
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- Aug 21, 2008
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Lozza...
Where in Aussie are you? I played in Perth one year.. back when I played year round. What a remarkable city.
Ok, I realize I look at things from a different perspective than many of you. But please try to understand that what I'm going to say is based off my own pitching, so take that at face value. We need to keep the BIG PICTURE in mind. In the highest of levels of softball, where everyone is striving to get, hitters become great by doing a couple of things at the plate. #1. they either have the pitcher picked to know what's coming (or the coaches who are savvy enough to read pitchers can help) or #2. they identify, recognize, and adjust to the spin of the ball as the pitcher releases it. OK hitters go up there and do their best, GREAT hitters are great because they train their eyes to see ball spin and pitcher tells. In a perfect world, we want the ball to spin 6/12 forward on the drop, 6/12 backward on a rise. Very few can get 6/12 on the rise but that is the goal and becomes important on multiple fronts. Out of my hand, I don't want the batter to be able to tell if the ball is spinning forward or backward. Hence the surprise break in the pitches and late reaction time. But anything thrown with 2 seams is a much looser and sloppier rotation and can be EASILY identified by hitters if they are trained to see it. This is why I believe there are certain hitting coaches which excel at fastpitch hitting training because they talk about the intangibles, not just how to swing a bat correctly. And I realize I always use the most extreme example but, if I'm facing Busto's at the plate, I want to hide the ball rotation as much as possible, along with what pitch I'm throwing to prevent my head from being taken off. Yes, side to side movement is easier with a 2 seam pitch. But as time goes on, side to side movement becomes less and less effective against GREAT hitters. So I believe in teaching pitchers from the very start how to attack GREAT hitters, not mediocre hitters. Doing what will be successful LONG term will also help them in the immediate present against the average hitters. However, spending time on pitches that are not going to help at the top top top top top level (international competition, etc.) is taking away from perfecting the ones that will help. So while "Sally" may get strikeouts with her 'screwball' at age 14, that is not what I want in my arsenal against Bustos... I want the ball changing planes so she cannot square it up as easy by swinging on the same plane as the ball is released. And, just as a side note, not only does 2 seams identify the pitch much easier but it will not move (up or down) as much as 4 seams. It can't. 4 seams cutting into the wind will make the ball break much sharper.
Bill
Where in Aussie are you? I played in Perth one year.. back when I played year round. What a remarkable city.
Ok, I realize I look at things from a different perspective than many of you. But please try to understand that what I'm going to say is based off my own pitching, so take that at face value. We need to keep the BIG PICTURE in mind. In the highest of levels of softball, where everyone is striving to get, hitters become great by doing a couple of things at the plate. #1. they either have the pitcher picked to know what's coming (or the coaches who are savvy enough to read pitchers can help) or #2. they identify, recognize, and adjust to the spin of the ball as the pitcher releases it. OK hitters go up there and do their best, GREAT hitters are great because they train their eyes to see ball spin and pitcher tells. In a perfect world, we want the ball to spin 6/12 forward on the drop, 6/12 backward on a rise. Very few can get 6/12 on the rise but that is the goal and becomes important on multiple fronts. Out of my hand, I don't want the batter to be able to tell if the ball is spinning forward or backward. Hence the surprise break in the pitches and late reaction time. But anything thrown with 2 seams is a much looser and sloppier rotation and can be EASILY identified by hitters if they are trained to see it. This is why I believe there are certain hitting coaches which excel at fastpitch hitting training because they talk about the intangibles, not just how to swing a bat correctly. And I realize I always use the most extreme example but, if I'm facing Busto's at the plate, I want to hide the ball rotation as much as possible, along with what pitch I'm throwing to prevent my head from being taken off. Yes, side to side movement is easier with a 2 seam pitch. But as time goes on, side to side movement becomes less and less effective against GREAT hitters. So I believe in teaching pitchers from the very start how to attack GREAT hitters, not mediocre hitters. Doing what will be successful LONG term will also help them in the immediate present against the average hitters. However, spending time on pitches that are not going to help at the top top top top top level (international competition, etc.) is taking away from perfecting the ones that will help. So while "Sally" may get strikeouts with her 'screwball' at age 14, that is not what I want in my arsenal against Bustos... I want the ball changing planes so she cannot square it up as easy by swinging on the same plane as the ball is released. And, just as a side note, not only does 2 seams identify the pitch much easier but it will not move (up or down) as much as 4 seams. It can't. 4 seams cutting into the wind will make the ball break much sharper.
Bill
Perth! I'm from Sydney originally, but moved here almost three years ago with work. Its an amazing city, its like a massive country town. I'm assuming you played at Mirrabooka?
I get what you're saying for the pitches. I don't know how much exposure you had to Australian softball, but fast pitch is played a lot longer. It breaks my heart of all these talented American girls who stop playing in their teens, because there doesn't seem to be a fast-pitch option avaliable to them. Why not play past high school age? Sure, they might not be international players, but not many people are. (and I know most of the Aussie ones) I'm 26, and I just want to be the best pitcher I can be, which is why I'm here trying to learn. I'm past the age of ever playing state but if I can be the best pitcher at my A grade comp, I'm very happy with that.
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- Aug 21, 2008
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Lozza
Yes, I played at Mirrabooka. The 2 most amazing things about that place: #1. players had to pay $2 to enter the park (even if you had a game that night) and #2 Metal cleats were not allowed (for adult ball). I've never heard of either thing. I was in Perth for about 4 of the 6 month State League season. I the winter before going to Perth, I had surgery on my knee and more or less used the Aussie season to rehab. About 4 months in, I felt pain again and shut it down. The team I played for was pissed off royally but, who knows how bad my knee would've been if I kept going? Now I'm 37 and still playing so.. looks like I made the right call.
I know what you mean. In NZ and Aussie there are many many more women playing than in the US. I truly believe this is a cultural thing. After college, people get jobs and seem to go away from their sports to start families or careers. It doesn't really occur to them that they could do both... even just socially. The hustle and bustle of living in the USA doesn't afford time for trainings and stuff that is common place down under. Men's fastpitch in the USA is different. There's a lot of money involved so guys play the weekend warrior role. Personally, I live in Pennsylvania and fly to New Jersey every week (Thursday) for games, then out of Jersey on Friday to wherever my weekend games are, which are all over the country. But again, it's different and probably the reason I got divorced this year. LOL On a side now, I'll be housing one of your fellow countrymen and #1 ranked/fastest pitcher in the world Adam Folkard for the summer. He threw a perfect game in the final of the ISF worlds last year to give your Aussie team the gold.
sorry to everyone for hijacking this thread.
Yes, I played at Mirrabooka. The 2 most amazing things about that place: #1. players had to pay $2 to enter the park (even if you had a game that night) and #2 Metal cleats were not allowed (for adult ball). I've never heard of either thing. I was in Perth for about 4 of the 6 month State League season. I the winter before going to Perth, I had surgery on my knee and more or less used the Aussie season to rehab. About 4 months in, I felt pain again and shut it down. The team I played for was pissed off royally but, who knows how bad my knee would've been if I kept going? Now I'm 37 and still playing so.. looks like I made the right call.
I know what you mean. In NZ and Aussie there are many many more women playing than in the US. I truly believe this is a cultural thing. After college, people get jobs and seem to go away from their sports to start families or careers. It doesn't really occur to them that they could do both... even just socially. The hustle and bustle of living in the USA doesn't afford time for trainings and stuff that is common place down under. Men's fastpitch in the USA is different. There's a lot of money involved so guys play the weekend warrior role. Personally, I live in Pennsylvania and fly to New Jersey every week (Thursday) for games, then out of Jersey on Friday to wherever my weekend games are, which are all over the country. But again, it's different and probably the reason I got divorced this year. LOL On a side now, I'll be housing one of your fellow countrymen and #1 ranked/fastest pitcher in the world Adam Folkard for the summer. He threw a perfect game in the final of the ISF worlds last year to give your Aussie team the gold.
sorry to everyone for hijacking this thread.
*rolls eyes* You really don't want to get me started on WA Softball. I can rant for HOURS on that subject. (my favourite hate is that they've recently raised the age of T-Ball from u-12s to u-15s. Drives me INSANE) Like I said I'm originally from NSW, which is still not that well run, but so much better than over here.
I don't think metal cleats have ever been allowed for softball over here. Though I do seem to think its recently been allowed.
That makes me sad. I love playing softball and miss it desperately during winter (my other rant, there's no women's fastpitch in winter over here. There's slow pitch, but I refuse to lower myself)
Adam is an AMAZING pitcher. I saw him pitch a number of times years ago. He's one of the big reasons ACT are such power houses in the men. I was so happy when they won the world's. The best way to tell how good a team is, is always to look at the players who don't make it. Some of my closest friends in NSW are amazing pitchers, and they can't even break into the NSW side, who came last this year. And these guys are amazing. Australian men's softball is going great guns right now and I wish the women would look at them. (such as for instance making some of the women retire. When the top two pitchers in the team are women who pitched at Atlanta, there's something wrong)
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