The Kelly Barnhill Thread

[corlay]

The reason we have a drought of good pitchers is because...

....pitching is hard work.

also, I think since so many girls start at 8U and 10U, they are developed by parents/coaches who are after short-term success.
"Just throw strikes!"
Attend any 8U/10U game and you'll hear it.

For every successful D1 pitcher, there are 25 girls who could mow 'em down in 8U, 10U , 12U;
and then started to hit a wall at 14U and were done playing on top competitive travel teams by 16U,
if not earlier.

 

[marriard]

The reason we have a drought of good pitchers is because ....

The amount of college teams has grown exponentially and supply has not kept up with demand... This 'there were more and better pitchers back in the day' rings hollow. It may have been more concentrated, but despite many challenges, the game is growing in leaps and bounds.

1982 - 143 college softball teams in D1
2000 - 243 college softball teams in D1
2015 - 289 college softball teams in D1.. I believe it may get over 300 this year.

Think about that - colleges added *46* D1 teams in the last 15 years. And that is just D1. On top of this, the number of teams that actively want to, and realistically MIGHT, win the WCWS has risen so the best pitchers are no longer just at UCLA, Michigan and Arizona or just in the PAC - they could be at one of 30-40 teams.

There is even more growth in D2, D3, JuCo and NAIA. There are supposedly somewhere over 2,000 college softball teams. That is a lot of players and a LOT of pitchers.

Honestly I don't think there is a drought. I think there are more good pitchers than ever - there is just not enough pitchers (or coaches) to keep up with demand...

Quick story - there is a terrible PC locally. Nice guy, just a terrible PC. One of the way he promotes himself is that he tells parents that "Every kid that has stayed with me through 18u has had the chance to play in college". And he is right. But privately he will also tell you that some of those kids were not all that good, but the lack of available pitchers means there is HUGE opportunity even for below average pitchers. I have seen college pitchers in D2 who would get shelled in a 14U-A travel game. I have seen JuCo game the same (and the opposite - I have seen some college non-D1 pitchers who were WAY better than 95% of any D1 pitchers out there).

 

[Rocketech1]

The reason we have a drought of good pitchers is because they are not invested in learning properly and surrounded by enablers ready to dumb down the game to the lowest common denominator. It is a slippery slope to start changing rules of a game because because people are too lazy to do it the right way. Leaping is most often cause by a mechanical defect that hinders the rest of the natural motion. IT IS A DEFECT AND NO PITCHER IN THE WOMENS GAME LEARNED THIS BY DESIGN. Granted keeping ones toe pointed straight down to keep in contact with the ground may or may not be natural. However if you actually study the pitching motion and a pitcher that opens naturally you will find that the toe stays pointed downward. It is not a forced action. Keeping the toe down should not be forced and is actually much more natural than jumping in the air and pointing your toes outward. Please explain how that is natural and mechanically efficient for a female athlete. Dumbing down the game does not help these players who suffer from what is already very poor and inefficient mechanics. At what point to the arm chair pitching coaches decide that windmill is not natural and we go back to slingshot? Or for that matter lets make the ball smaller so it is easier to hold and throw overhand.

We will agree to disagree. There is zero chance that dragging the foot along the ground is a more "natural" motion than leaping off the ground. This is precisely why you see so many "leapers", especially at the younger age groups, get the back pivot foot off the ground because its a more natural motion pushing off of the pitching plate. It is a constant struggle for many newbie pitchers (I know it was for my DD and pretty much every other pitcher who learned to pitch starting at 7, 8, and 9 YOs). Pushing off the pitching plate is a very similar motion to the start of running. You see any runners dragging their back foot along the ground? IMO and experience with young pitchers a "leap", which is allowed in the men's game, is a much more (not less) natural motion.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

There is even more growth in D2, D3, JuCo and NAIA. There are supposedly somewhere over 2,000 college softball teams. That is a lot of players and a LOT of pitchers.

Just because there are more opportunities at the higher levels doesn't equate to there being MORE players (and pitchers) overall.

Youth sports are in decline and softball participation has remained flat (or decreased depending on what study you look at). One reason is monetary but for softball I would argue that arcane pitching rules and poor pitching instruction limits the number of quality pitchers at an early age.

No pitching = no hitting = no fun = girls lose interest.

 

[JAD]

The amount of college teams has grown exponentially and supply has not kept up with demand... This 'there were more and better pitchers back in the day' rings hollow. It may have been more concentrated, but despite many challenges, the game is growing in leaps and bounds.

1982 - 143 college softball teams in D1
2000 - 243 college softball teams in D1
2015 - 289 college softball teams in D1.. I believe it may get over 300 this year.

Think about that - colleges added *46* D1 teams in the last 15 years. And that is just D1. On top of this, the number of teams that actively want to, and realistically MIGHT, win the WCWS has risen so the best pitchers are no longer just at UCLA, Michigan and Arizona or just in the PAC - they could be at one of 30-40 teams.

There is even more growth in D2, D3, JuCo and NAIA. There are supposedly somewhere over 2,000 college softball teams. That is a lot of players and a LOT of pitchers.

Honestly I don't think there is a drought. I think there are more good pitchers than ever - there is just not enough pitchers (or coaches) to keep up with demand...

Quick story - there is a terrible PC locally. Nice guy, just a terrible PC. One of the way he promotes himself is that he tells parents that "Every kid that has stayed with me through 18u has had the chance to play in college". And he is right. But privately he will also tell you that some of those kids were not all that good, but the lack of available pitchers means there is HUGE opportunity even for below average pitchers. I have seen college pitchers in D2 who would get shelled in a 14U-A travel game. I have seen JuCo game the same (and the opposite - I have seen some college non-D1 pitchers who were WAY better than 95% of any D1 pitchers out there).

SIUe #1 pitcher is borderline illegal, but she brings it and would be the #1 pitcher on just about every D1 team, including some in the top 25...

 

[marriard]

Just because there are more opportunities at the higher levels doesn't equate to there being MORE players (and pitchers) overall.
.

That is my point - it may looks like there is a drought or drop in the number of good pitchers but that may not be the case. If the supply has remained constant then it is likely there is just as many good pitchers as before, it is just that demand has gone up so they are more spread out than they used to be. Also we now have access to see a lot of pitchers and teams (both good and bad) all the time. The number of televised and streamed games we can watch live or recorded has gone through a massive explosion. That means we get to see regularly more and more players that before we were lucky to ever see once a year (or not even that).

I would also argue that we are starting to see college coaches finally moving from the practice of having 1 pitcher pitch 90% of the innings. That should help long term, but also means teams #2 and #3 options are getting more circle time. And they are generally #2 for #3 for a reason.

 

[Rocketech1]

Just because there are more opportunities at the higher levels doesn't equate to there being MORE players (and pitchers) overall.

Youth sports are in decline and softball participation has remained flat (or decreased depending on what study you look at). One reason is monetary but for softball I would argue that arcane pitching rules and poor pitching instruction limits the number of quality pitchers at an early age.

No pitching = no hitting = no fun = girls lose interest.

Agree. If you go to Heybucket (SoCal), there are hundreds of posts of teams looking for quality pitchers at all levels. In high school its even worse. DD just played a JV game and both of the other teams pitchers looked like "B" level rec pitchers throwing about 35 - 40mph with tons of walks and hit batters (We won 34-0). DD's 5 game pre-season run differential was 128-12! We live in Los Angeles County where you would think there would be a plethora of quality pitching but there really isn't. Pitching is a ton of work, requiring a personal pitching coach starting at a young age, and practicing 3x a week, year-round. When you add on the 4 pages of pitching regulations and trying to stay in compliance, no wonder the vast majority of the pitchers quit the position. If we don't make the game more accessible for the average player, they are going to choose a different sport to play and fastpitch has and will suffer.

 

[diamond14]

So we move the the plate back to 46 and leap like men. Do you allow a back step like men? Why not? So now the 1% are throwing 75+. Batters complain, they want hotter bats. Gotta move bases back to 75' because balls are rocketing to IF. Now nobody has a chance to steal...let em lead! Fences go back or all modeled after the Green Monster. Well, crap, I will just watch baseball.
This reminds me of the annual argument in our county. We get heavy traffic due to beach bound travellers in the summer. A single hwy inevietably produces several fatalities over the summer. Howls commence in the paper to upgrade road. (not physically feasible due to environmental factors). But the problem is not the road but a few BAD drivers that REFUSE to be safe all to save two minutes to get to the beach.
Burns me the entire system must be turned on its head for those that want ACCOMODATION to not following rules.

 

[Rocketech1]

So we move the the plate back to 46 and leap like men. Do you allow a back step like men? Why not? So now the 1% are throwing 75+. Batters complain, they want hotter bats. Gotta move bases back to 75' because balls are rocketing to IF. Now nobody has a chance to steal...let em lead! Fences go back or all modeled after the Green Monster. Well, crap, I will just watch baseball.
This reminds me of the annual argument in our county. We get heavy traffic due to beach bound travellers in the summer. A single hwy inevietably produces several fatalities over the summer. Howls commence in the paper to upgrade road. (not physically feasible due to environmental factors). But the problem is not the road but a few BAD drivers that REFUSE to be safe all to save two minutes to get to the beach.
Burns me the entire system must be turned on its head for those that want ACCOMODATION to not following rules.

Bad analogy. Illegal pitching and enforcement of said pitching is an epidemic, not just a few bad apples. Heck, even USA's, arguably best pitcher ever, (Cat) was using illegal mechanics (cheater?) throughout her storied career and NEVER got called for an IP at any level of the game. Why are so many pitchers pitching illegally and why are the umpires not calling it and are told to look the other way? This is why I have said many times, the system is broken and needs to be cleaned up big time. I truly believe that there is nothing natural about dragging the pivot foot along the ground and this is one of the biggest reasons for kids not pitching within the rule book. Nothing wrong with making changes to the rules if they are not longer applicable and you will not enforce them. This is a game, not criminal law, if the rules are not being enforced for the betterment of the game then the governing bodies, who turn a blind eye, should have the guts to acknowledge it and make the necessary changes.

Your other point, who really cares if you have a back step or not. Heck, in HS around here and probably everywhere else around the country you can start with your back foot off the pitching plate. Why is this allowed in HS but nowhere else? But wait in international play and the men's game its ok? Really bizarre how arbitrary the pitching rules are. You can leap off the ground if there is a hole in front of home plate...who can determine if there is a hole or not, and if they are leaping the level of the ground (had the dirt not been removed??). And we wonder why umpires are not calling kids that are leaping because pretty much every field has a hole that forms after the 1st inning. The game really does not have to be as complicated as the rules make it. Reminds me of the US tax code...

 

[riseball]

Bad analogy. Illegal pitching and enforcement of said pitching is an epidemic, not just a few bad apples. Heck, even USA's, arguably best pitcher ever, (Cat) was using illegal mechanics (cheater?) throughout her storied career and NEVER got called for an IP at any level of the game. Why are so many pitchers pitching illegally and why are the umpires not calling it and are told to look the other way? This is why I have said many times, the system is broken and needs to be cleaned up big time. I truly believe that there is nothing natural about dragging the pivot foot along the ground and this is one of the biggest reasons for kids not pitching within the rule book. Nothing wrong with making changes to the rules if they are not longer applicable and you will not enforce them. This is a game, not criminal law, if the rules are not being enforced for the betterment of the game then the governing bodies, who turn a blind eye, should have the guts to acknowledge it and make the necessary changes.

Your other point, who really cares if you have a back step or not. Heck, in HS around here and probably everywhere else around the country you can start with your back foot off the pitching plate. Why is this allowed in HS but nowhere else? But wait in international play and the men's game its ok? Really bizarre how arbitrary the pitching rules are. You can leap off the ground if there is a hole in front of home plate...who can determine if there is a hole or not, and if they are leaping the level of the ground (had the dirt not been removed??). And we wonder why umpires are not calling kids that are leaping because pretty much every field has a hole that forms after the 1st inning. The game really does not have to be as complicated as the rules make it. Reminds me of the US tax code...

I think if you truly studied the pitching motion and worked with pitchers you would find that keeping the toe down is much more natural than you theorize. I think you would also come to realize that the reason for kids pitching illegally is due to poor instruction and unnatural mechanics, not because of a complex or unpopular rule. While it is expedient to dumb down the game and change the rules, the game and those who participate would benefit much more from better instruction. What you propose is very much like the current culture that is that is prevalent in the public school system. Dumb down the requirements until everyone is successful. That way you do not have to make the tough calls and hold people accountable. However, in the long run it benefits nobody. The game is very simple but just like the tax code you don't cheat on your taxes because you fail to understand it or because it is easier. BTW - Starting with the back foot off the rubber was removed by the NFHS a while ago. It was originally there to dumb things down so anyone could pitch. I guess even the NFHS wants to move the game forward.