The Kelly Barnhill Thread

[riseball]

You continue to do this whenever someone mentions speed, speed and command are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE events. If Player X can go from 65 to 70 mph and maintain command by leaping, yeah, I'd advocate giving it a try. The greatest risk is not taking one.

No they are not mutually exclusive. But you are advocating removal of BI which I think you will agree is not a good thing. Again, if you had skin in the game would you completely change a pitchers mechanics who is already in the top 1% in the game? If it were your DD are you going to let someone use them as a lab rat to "give it a try"?

 

[cuzmail]

Riseball, I hear you and agree. My daughter is mechanically sound..she continues to work on her craft, working on little things and her flaws that creep in. She is same size as Barnhill, very strong and athletic..She looks fluid and balanced and ashe a HS sophomore tops out at 65mph right now. (Has hit 66, been clocked consistently 64-65 in games) However I'll be honest it has crossed my mind.. if she did what Barnhill did would she be able to hit 70s like her??? Maybe....

I'm not riseball, nor do I play him on TV.
BUT...
If you have a 2019 throwing 65mph with any sort of control, then I wouldn't do a thing to change her mechanics!!!
If she doesn't have a terrible attitude, then she is either already committed to a top 25 D1 program or those programs are knocking down the door to get in an try to woo her.

 

[Snotbubbles]

No they are not mutually exclusive. But you are advocating removal of BI which I think you will agree is not a good thing. Again, if you had skin in the game would you completely change a pitchers mechanics who is already in the top 1% in the game? If it were your DD are you going to let someone use them as a lab rat to "give it a try"?

If you're in the top 1% you obviously don't need to change, but the other 99% of kids might need to try something different to get into that top 1% though. Just like not every player in MLB needs to use steroids to make it, but there are a percentage of guys who have to to make it.

 

[riseball]

If you're in the top 1% you obviously don't need to change, but the other 99% of kids might need to try something different to get into that top 1% though. Just like not every player in MLB needs to use steroids to make it, but there are a percentage of guys who have to to make it.

Well I certainly agree with your analogy of leap and replant with steroid use.

 

[corlay]

watched the game last night.

agree that the ump's zone for Jake in the 1st inning was very inconsistent.
Especially on change ups or 2-seamers to the outside against left-handed batters.

But FLA ain't #1 for nothing.
They have a lethal battery.
Not sure a more consistent zone would have changed the outcome of that game, honestly...

Busting a no-no AND a shut-out with 2-strikes, 2-out, facing a mercy-rule end of the 5th?
How cool was that? (TV coverage didn't feature a close-up of Barnhill's reaction, but body-language from afar said it all...)

Regarding Barnhill,
I think the leap/replant is pretty hard to call in real-time.
WE all have the benefit of analyzing her pitching in high-res slo-mo replay,
and are thus very sensitive to the issue. The umps on the field need to see something indisputable to call an IP.
Barnhill does a great job of keeping that drag toe ever so slightly in contact with the ground, or at least very near it, that a "leap" IP call is pretty unlikely.
The replant/push happens so quickly, that I just don;t see umps calling that either.
I'm not saying what she is doing is "legal" per the letter of the rules, just that her motion disguises the infractions well-enough to prevent being called.

Her Monica Seles-like grunt is good evidence that she is "muscling" her pitches,
rather than primarily transferring energy and "whipping" them.

My first time watching her pitch, I was pretty impressed by a few things:
1.) her drive/overlap is very good. body moving forward, backswing going backward.
2.) she powers her pitch with her legs/hips very well. (yes, the replant is probably the source for this energy)

Regarding Osacio:
A regular rotation pitcher that is an "everyday" player in the outfield on days she doesn't pitch?
Impressive! (Last Top-25 example I knew of was Jaylin Ford - James Madison '16)
We hear so much about Barnhill and Gourley, but Osacio has been pretty impressive in the circle so far as well,
and she can HIT/RUN.

 

[Rocketech1]

Regarding Barnhill,
I think the leap/replant is pretty hard to call in real-time.
WE all have the benefit of analyzing her pitching in high-res slo-mo replay,
and are thus very sensitive to the issue. The umps on the field need to see something indisputable to call an IP.
Barnhill does a great job of keeping that drag toe ever so slightly in contact with the ground, or at least very near it, that a "leap" IP call is pretty unlikely.
The replant/push happens so quickly, that I just don;t see umps calling that either.
I'm not saying what she is doing is "legal" per the letter of the rules, just that her motion disguises the infractions well-enough to prevent being called.

Her Monica Seles-like grunt is good evidence that she is "muscling" her pitches,
rather than primarily transferring energy and "whipping" them.

My first time watching her pitch, I was pretty impressed by a few things:
1.) her drive/overlap is very good. body moving forward, backswing going backward.
2.) she powers her pitch with her legs/hips very well. (yes, the replant is probably the source for this energy)

What impresses me most about Barnhill, notwithstanding her flawed mechanics, is she is very efficient pitcher: 119 strikeouts/15 walks (ratio of 8/1); ERA 0.23; and opponents batting average .121. Combine that with arguably the deepest pitching staff in the nation, they should be the favoritesto win the WCWS. Time will tell...

 

[Rick Pauly]

watched the game last night.

agree that the ump's zone for Jake in the 1st inning was very inconsistent.
Especially on change ups or 2-seamers to the outside against left-handed batters.

But FLA ain't #1 for nothing.
They have a lethal battery.
Not sure a more consistent zone would have changed the outcome of that game, honestly...

Busting a no-no AND a shut-out with 2-strikes, 2-out, facing a mercy-rule end of the 5th?
How cool was that? (TV coverage didn't feature a close-up of Barnhill's reaction, but body-language from afar said it all...)

Regarding Barnhill,
I think the leap/replant is pretty hard to call in real-time.
WE all have the benefit of analyzing her pitching in high-res slo-mo replay,
and are thus very sensitive to the issue. The umps on the field need to see something indisputable to call an IP.
Barnhill does a great job of keeping that drag toe ever so slightly in contact with the ground, or at least very near it, that a "leap" IP call is pretty unlikely.
The replant/push happens so quickly, that I just don;t see umps calling that either.
I'm not saying what she is doing is "legal" per the letter of the rules, just that her motion disguises the infractions well-enough to prevent being called.

Her Monica Seles-like grunt is good evidence that she is "muscling" her pitches,
rather than primarily transferring energy and "whipping" them.

My first time watching her pitch, I was pretty impressed by a few things:
1.) her drive/overlap is very good. body moving forward, backswing going backward.
2.) she powers her pitch with her legs/hips very well. (yes, the replant is probably the source for this energy)

Regarding Osacio:
A regular rotation pitcher that is an "everyday" player in the outfield on days she doesn't pitch?
Impressive! (Last Top-25 example I knew of was Jaylin Ford - James Madison '16)
We hear so much about Barnhill and Gourley, but Osacio has been pretty impressive in the circle so far as well,
and she can HIT/RUN.

Regarding the difficulty of seeing it................how about using technology for umpires. Set a replay camera on the 1st/3rd base side and let an unsure umpire take a slow mo look at the pitch. Do it between innings if needed so it doesn't slow the game. To me this makes a lot more sense then moving the distance back to 46 feet. The past few years there has been increased use of technology allowed by teams during games...........why not the umpires?

 

[corlay]

Regarding the difficulty of seeing it................how about using technology for umpires. Set a replay camera on the 1st/3rd base side and let an unsure umpire take a slow mo look at the pitch. Do it between innings if needed so it doesn't slow the game. To me this makes a lot more sense then moving the distance back to 46 feet. The past few years there has been increased use of technology allowed by teams during games...........why not the umpires?

not sure how looking at a pitch, after the fact, in between innings can work?
doesn't the IP and the penalty assessed have to happen in-game in real-time?

I keep hearing the NCAA announcers talking about how there is a push to speed up the game,
rather than slow it down. Stopping play for video analysis is never going to fly.

I also agree changing the men's ruleset and moving mound back further is not a good option, either.
I like the current "balance" of pitching vs hitting right now, personally.

 

[riseball]

Regarding the difficulty of seeing it................how about using technology for umpires. Set a replay camera on the 1st/3rd base side and let an unsure umpire take a slow mo look at the pitch. Do it between innings if needed so it doesn't slow the game. To me this makes a lot more sense then moving the distance back to 46 feet. The past few years there has been increased use of technology allowed by teams during games...........why not the umpires?

not sure how looking at a pitch, after the fact, in between innings can work?
doesn't the IP and the penalty assessed have to happen in-game in real-time?

I keep hearing the NCAA announcers talking about how there is a push to speed up the game,
rather than slow it down. Stopping play for video analysis is never going to fly.

I also agree changing the men's ruleset and moving mound back further is not a good option, either.
I like the current "balance" of pitching vs hitting right now, personally.

I disagree that there is a big issue seeing it. I think that it is a combination of turning a blind eye and lack of training. But for purpose of this conversation let's go with that. There are tons of solutions, the only thing missing is willingness to do something.

Video Replay
The technology is available at most schools. You could do this similar to the NFL where a team had 3 "challenges". If the pitch was illegal, they would retain that challenge and the current penalty would be assessed but with 1 addition. 3 strikes and you are out. After the 3rd IP the pitch would have to be removed but could remain in the order, play a position, etc. New pitcher would get 3 IP's before they would have to leave, except that after the 2nd pitcher is removed for IP's the HC is tossed with an administrative ejection. I concede that yes this will initially slow the game down. However, almost overnight pitchers would magically find the ability to pitch legally and IP's would be rare. To me this is not a very desirable solution.

Electronic Enforcement
If you have been to a bowling alley in the last half century you have seen a workable solution. Typically this is an optical device which granted may be problematic in direct sun. However other solutions such as lasers would be very effective. These would be unobtrusive and positioned to confirm that a pitch, at least from a leap standpoint was legal. The beauty of this solution is that feedback is immediate, and depending on the positioning in terms of height and distance from the rubber there could be some latitude given to developing pitchers. This would be low cost to implement and have an immediate impact.

Change the Rules
I agree with Rick Pauly that this might turn the game into a mens beer league game. But I think you will see two extremes. Many pitchers at the lower levels will get hammered, but those at the elite level with the ability to spin the ball may dominate like never before. If you take a pitcher like Sydney Littlejohn who has a wicked curve ball and allow them to step way out from the rubber (no 24 inch rule) you may see pitches that traverse the plate at close to 45 degrees. I can see players getting drilled with dead ball strikes. So you may see a mixture of men's beer league and wiffle ball.

I am sure there are many other approaches. The worst of which is to stay the current course.

 

[corlay]

Video Replay
Electronic Enforcement

These types of scrutiny are used in other sports to confirm a clear-cut, yes-or-no issue,
that may have been mis-perceived in real-time by the officials.

Think: buzzer-beater basketball shots, tennis serves catching the line, tags at second base on a steal attempt, a wide receiver dragging his toe as he sails out-of-bounds, etc.

These rulings are (usually) 100% confirmed or reversed by the replay, if the camera-angle was sufficient to see the play clearly.

So, your suggestions may work to detect a leap, (I'm hearing the *beep* that sounds when a tennis serve lands beyond the service line...),
because either you are airborne, or you are not - and that is easy to confirm or reverse.
but they still do not solve the "2nd push" infraction.

To rule on it, makes it a judgement call by the umpire,
whether observed in real-time, or in replay.

I think in many cases, and certainly Barnhill, the 2nd push is akin to something like Allen Iverson's crossover: does he carry the ball?
This particular infraction has to be *really obvious* to get called.