Teaching Hitting and the HIP COIL

[FiveFrameSwing]

There was never a correction to make, but pat yourself on your back if that makes you feel better.

And please show me where SL says the forearm should be perfectly vertical as well. Don't show me a picture of a drill that you have taken out of context.

Not only was there video of what Howard described as being stacked, but there were silly explanations about being stronger when pulling on an imaginary rope. Then there were the numerous demonstrations by SL in which he demonstrated the same vertical forearm. In any event, it sounds like you agree that those demonstrations where not in agreement with the Hanson Principle. It was a bad idea ... one that at this point in time you agree was not correct.

 

[Daddy O]

Not only was there video of what Howard described as being stacked, but there were silly explanations about being stronger when pulling on an imaginary rope. Then there were the numerous demonstrations by SL in which he demonstrated the same vertical forearm. In any event, it sounds like you agree that those demonstrations where not in agreement with the Hanson Principle. It was a bad idea ... one that at this point in time you agree was not correct.

I believe I saw the same video. Howard was viewed from the side, not from the rear. He ran his finger up and down his forearm showing the placement of the hands stacked over the elbow. At NO time did he say that he desired a perfectly vertical stack. He simply stated that they should be in alignment as you pass through what some call connection. So GIVE IT A REST. I don't give a da-- what you believe SL's videos demonstrated. Listen to what Howard said, not what you think he said.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I believe I saw the same video. Howard was viewed from the side, not from the rear. He ran his finger up and down his forearm showing the placement of the hands stacked over the elbow. At NO time did he say that he desired a perfectly vertical stack. He simply stated that they should be in alignment as you pass through what some call connection. So GIVE IT A REST. I don't give a da-- what you believe SL's videos demonstrated. Listen to what Howard said, not what you think he said.

DaddyO, I just viewed the video again. Howard is slightly beyond the "RVP Connection Point Position", and his holding is rear forearm in a virtual perfect vertical orientation ... more like a bat lag position than the RVP-Connection-Point position. There is no way to mistake that he is referring to his rear forearm ... he runs the index finger of his left hand up and down his rear forearm, ... from hand to elbow, and says "this is stacked". You said to listen to what Howard says ... he specifically said "this is stacked". There is also no mistaking SL's demonstrations in which he duplicated the same error. I agree with the notion of giving it a rest ... it's a mistake that SL demonstrated several times and something that should be avoided.

 

[Bouldersdad]

DaddyO, I just viewed the video again. Howard is slightly beyond the "RVP Connection Point Position", and his holding is rear forearm in a virtual perfect vertical orientation ... more like a bat lag position than the RVP-Connection-Point position. There is no way to mistake that he is referring to his rear forearm ... he runs the index finger of his left hand up and down his rear forearm, ... from hand to elbow, and says "this is stacked". You said to listen to what Howard says ... he specifically said "this is stacked". There is also no mistaking SL's demonstrations in which he duplicated the same error. I agree with the notion of giving it a rest ... it's a mistake that SL demonstrated several times and something that should be avoided.

So you teach back hand coming thru before back elbow?

 

[straightleg]

Doc Yeager spelled it out clear as day.

FFS still disputing facts, from multiple posters.

Wow!!!



SL



ps.
Any hitters of your own to talk about yet??
You have talked/boasted many times how you just jump in the cages and bust/crush the ball for the feeling.
Any video of you swinging a bat??

 

[Greenmonsters]

DaddyO, I just viewed the video again. Howard is slightly beyond the "RVP Connection Point Position", and his holding is rear forearm in a virtual perfect vertical orientation ... more like a bat lag position than the RVP-Connection-Point position. There is no way to mistake that he is referring to his rear forearm ... he runs the index finger of his left hand up and down his rear forearm, ... from hand to elbow, and says "this is stacked". You said to listen to what Howard says ... he specifically said "this is stacked". There is also no mistaking SL's demonstrations in which he duplicated the same error. I agree with the notion of giving it a rest ... it's a mistake that SL demonstrated several times and something that should be avoided.

FFS - How easy and justifiable would it have been for Howard to have posted pix and clips of Bustos (and other Olympians he instructed) and simply said "Do this". Instead, he posted here explaining and showing HOW he taught hitters (representative-aged amatuer female SB players at that) key swing elements. You've made it clear for about the last 2 years that you have an issue w/ Howard's "vertical forearm video clip" - I understood your point then and learned from it. Your contributions to the model swing thread, swing analyses and technical discussions have been invaluable to me and my DD - thank you, but your continued harping on Howard's attempts to show HOW he teaches the swing really make me wonder what motivates you to post here.

Applying the Hansen principle to this situation leads to the question "What do the best hitting instructors do?"

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

So you teach back hand coming thru before back elbow?

I'm not sure I understand your exact question, ... in that a reference point wasn't made ... but I believe you mean relative to the RVP-Connection-Point position.

I do favor promoting a swing that passes through the RVP-Connection-Point position (also given many other names). Let me clarify .....

The "RVP-Connection-Point" position is the point in the swing when the top hand passes the rear shoulder such that the 'hands' + 'rear elbow' + 'rear shoulder' + 'rear hip' are all aligned on a common plane as we see in the photo of Bonds below. In addition to the orientation, I like to see a pinched forearm-to-bicep relationship where the degree of the 'pinch' is a function of pitch location ... sometimes referred to as a Power-Vee ... again, see photo of Bonds below.

 

[Coach Dad 01]

My Hitting coach credentials are "NONE"!!!!! But I enjoy watching the feelings being thrown around!!

 

[straightleg]

FFS - How easy and justifiable would it have been for Howard to have posted pix and clips of Bustos (and other Olympians he instructed) and simply said "Do this". Instead, he posted here explaining and showing HOW he taught hitters (representative-aged amatuer female SB players at that) key swing elements. You've made it clear for about the last 2 years that you have an issue w/ Howard's "vertical forearm video clip" - I understood your point then and learned from it. Your contributions to the model swing thread, swing analyses and technical discussions have been invaluable to me and my DD - thank you, but your continued harping on Howard's attempts to show HOW he teaches the swing really make me wonder what motivates you to post here.

Applying the Hansen principle to this situation leads to the question "What do the best hitting instructors do?"

He keeps reposting a picture of my daughter that was from 4 years ago.
His motive's are clear.



SL

 

[Wellphyt]

Howard had four, one from Miami of Ohio, two from Valpro and one from Kentucky.

I think the hitters we teach have proven that what we teach works.
Just turn on ESPN

NCAA rankings has Kentucky 36, Miami (OH) 64, and Valpo 84.

A good friend and fellow coach has a DD who plays for Georgia Tech. He was his DD's hitting coach. He even borrowed my Esptein dvds back in 2006 and incorporated some of Epstein's material and drills into what he taught his DD. Georgia Tech is ranked 21st. If playing with a D1 school somewhere in the country is how we are going to measure whether or not a player has a high level swing like Bustos, then what my friend teaches also works. If that's how we measure it, then it can be said that every player who plays D1 softball should be considered to have a high level swing.

I'm also noticing for the first time this year a big difference between schools in the pitching. Some pitchers are topping at at around 60mph, while most of the pitchers from the better known schools are consistently hitting 68-70mph. IMO there is a big difference between 60mph and 68mph. My DD sees 60mph in travel ball. There is one pitcher in town that supposedly pitches 68mph. Those of us who coach, know that swings can break down as the pitching gets better. In D1, the break down just occurs at a higher level than it does in 14u or 16u travel ball.

IMO a better measure of whether a player has a swing that "works" is to compare their swings to players like Bustos or Cochran, who have produced outstanding offensive stats against the better pitchers over the course of a college career and beyond at the international level.

I'm not saying that D1 players can't hit or aren't good hitters. I'm saying that not all D1 players can hit like Bustos or Cochran; and it probably makes sense to copy what the best do. Bustos and Cochran both coil their hips, they both coil their hips at the right time, and they both carry the coil into toe touch.

I view the cue of "landing on the edge of the foot with the big toe", as a way to get hitters to hold the coil into toe touch. The big problem I have with that cue is the "landing" part, where it teaches the hitter; whether intentionally or not; that toe touch is a destination. I did something similar with my DD, and IMO it is not the way to teach hip coil. I have found that if you want to match the hip action of the better hitters, just teach the kids to keep the front side closed until they are ready to swing, and forget about landing a certain way at toe touch. Let the back side open up the front side, and see if the kid's front foot naturally does what it needs to do.