Teaching Hitting and the HIP COIL

[Bouldersdad]

Team rankings realy? Just like your friend I dont believe that H myself or anyone else instructs every kid on the teams mentioned. We all have our own students. My daughter being mine. Your friends daughter is no more responsable for Ga Techs rankings than my dd is hers. I spoke of individual accomplishments. Out of right at 23 or 2400 D1 Athletes if your student is in the top 50 to 75 or so yes I woulds say thats pretty darn elite.

Post your friends dd,s stats. I would be interested in seeing how the Hansen and TSOH relate to Ba, RBI, HR OB% AND SLG % at the D1 level. I agree with you that swings that stand up to high level pitching is what we should seek. I can tell you that mine went 500 and an rbi off of Hillary Bach at ASU as a freshman. And that is some pretty elite pitching so I was pretty happy with the out come of that.

70 MPH is one heck of alot easier to hit than a 64 mph ball that breaks over the chalk. Ever since they have the new rule this year about hit batters, the blues are giving chalk plus, so big break pitchers are what colleges will now focus on recruiting. There was a time when speed was the end all as the hitters got better the teams finally woke up and noticed that speed is nothing without movement.

I will go back to my original comment though. When as an instructor your student can achieve being an Olympic athlete ( which by the way is impossible now so CB and the rest will remain in a category all by themselves) NPF would be the next level that is still attainable. All American or all region in college. Those are the top hitters in our sport. The argument can be made day in and day out to the contrary but I will place numbers at the front of my argument. The top hitters produce..... period.


Tim

 

[Bouldersdad]

I'm not sure I understand your exact question, ... in that a reference point wasn't made ... but I believe you mean relative to the RVP-Connection-Point position.

I do favor promoting a swing that passes through the RVP-Connection-Point position (also given many other names). Let me clarify .....

The "RVP-Connection-Point" position is the point in the swing when the top hand passes the rear shoulder such that the 'hands' + 'rear elbow' + 'rear shoulder' + 'rear hip' are all aligned on a common plane as we see in the photo of Bonds below. In addition to the orientation, I like to see a pinched forearm-to-bicep relationship where the degree of the 'pinch' is a function of pitch location ... sometimes referred to as a Power-Vee ... again, see photo of Bonds below.

I guess what i am asking is that if you do not like or teach what we believe that the back elbow must come thru the slot to connection before the top hand. You must prefer the hand to come through first. I am looking at the pic of him as I type and what I see from the side is the top hand is pretty much on top of the elbow. It may be a little forward but not enough to cause him difficulty. Your v is the product of 3 points, hand and elbow top to bottom connecting to the rear shoulder or the rvp. I still believe that all this arguing is over semantics because I really dont see a diff in his pic from what we teach.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I guess what i am asking is that if you do not like or teach what we believe that the back elbow must come thru the slot to connection before the top hand. You must prefer the hand to come through first. I am looking at the pic of him as I type and what I see from the side is the top hand is pretty much on top of the elbow. It may be a little forward but not enough to cause him difficulty. Your v is the product of 3 points, hand and elbow top to bottom connecting to the rear shoulder or the rvp. I still believe that all this arguing is over semantics because I really dont see a diff in his pic from what we teach.

I'm still assuming that you are referring to the RVP Connection Point position here .....

I'm not yet following your question. Perhaps you are describing the action getting to the RVP Connection Point position?

At the RVP Connection Point position neither the 'hands' or 'rear elbow' are ahead ... they are on the same plane with each other. The 'hands' + 'rear elbow' + 'rear shoulder' + 'rear hip' are aligned on a common plane. The top hand is above the rear elbow, but not with rear forearm in a perfect vertical orientation.

It isn't semantics at all. What was demonstrated earlier had the rear forearm vertical in this position with the rear elbow far displaced from the trunk of the body. That is hurtful to the swing.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I view the cue of "landing on the edge of the foot with the big toe", as a way to get hitters to hold the coil into toe touch. The big problem I have with that cue is the "landing" part, where it teaches the hitter; whether intentionally or not; that toe touch is a destination. I did something similar with my DD, and IMO it is not the way to teach hip coil. I have found that if you want to match the hip action of the better hitters, just teach the kids to keep the front side closed until they are ready to swing, and forget about landing a certain way at toe touch. Let the back side open up the front side, and see if the kid's front foot naturally does what it needs to do.

Wellphyt ... curious if you've worked with SB's cue of maintaining pressure between the knees.

 

[straightleg]

No quit in that Dog

 

[Wellphyt]

Team rankings realy? Just like your friend I dont believe that H myself or anyone else instructs every kid on the teams mentioned. We all have our own students. My daughter being mine. Your friends daughter is no more responsable for Ga Techs rankings than my dd is hers.

Whoa! My post doesn't say anything about someone being responsible for the rankings of a team. That thought never even enter my mind. All I'm saying is that if we use SL's measurement for what works when it comes to teaching hitting, then my friend could be said to teach hitting as good as Howard and his followers. My friend's DD plays on a higher ranked team than either Kentucky, Miami (OH) or Valpo, so he must of done a pretty good job of teaching her how to hit, right?

The reality is that my friend's DD being recruited by Tech has little to do with her swing and how well my friend teaches hitting. Like many D1 players she was recruited because of her athleticism and work ethic. Do you think your DD's size has anything to do with her playing D1 ball? In the game that I watched, I had her as the biggest player on either team.

I just don't see how saying that a particular hitting instructor has students playing D1 softball proves that the swing they teach is high level on the order of a Bustos or Cochran. Does every hitting instructor that gave hitting lessons to a girl now playing D1 fastpitch mean they teach a Bustos type swing? I don't believe so. It could mean that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. That's why I prefer to use video. Either my DD matches the best or she doesn't. If she doesn't match then we have more work to do, regardless of how well she is currently hitting at the level she is playing at. I'm not going to wait until her swing breaks down before making adjustments. I prefer to stay ahead of the curve. IMO if her swing doesn't match the best, then it's a given that at some point it will break down.

Also, when discussing hitting instructors that have multiple players playing D1 softball, we need to include Epstein and Slaught. Those two have probably had more influence on the quality of swings we are now seeing in fastpitch than anybody else.

 

[Wellphyt]

Wellphyt ... curious if you've worked with SB's cue of maintaining pressure between the knees.

I don't use the cue pressure between the knees. Former MLB player and hitting instructor Todd Greene who gives lessons North of Atlanta, used that term in the telephone interview I posted a link to. I'm not sure if he uses it in lessons, but he teaches the general action when giving lessons. The Dad/Coach that interviewed Todd said that his DD had not been taught that action by any of her previous instructors. As a former MLB player Todd clearly believes that holding the coil into toe touch is important.

I just tell the kids to keep the front side closed until they swing. I further tell them that when their brain says swing, the front side will want to open and to let it happen.

 

[Bouldersdad]

Whoa! My post doesn't say anything about someone being responsible for the rankings of a team. That thought never even enter my mind. All I'm saying is that if we use SL's measurement for what works when it comes to teaching hitting, then my friend could be said to teach hitting as good as Howard and his followers. My friend's DD plays on a higher ranked team than either Kentucky, Miami (OH) or Valpo, so he must of done a pretty good job of teaching her how to hit, right?

SL mentioned players from those schools, you mentioned the RPI of the schools and the schools in general. Maybe the friend did as good a job? Without stats to compare kid by kid I couldent say. You are the only one with the final answer to that. There are good hitters on poor teams. Look at any last placed team in their confrence and you will see one or two hitters that make you say damn..what the heck are they doing on that team.

The reality is that my friend's DD being recruited by Tech has little to do with her swing and how well my friend teaches hitting. Like many D1 players she was recruited because of her athleticism and work ethic. Do you think your DD's size has anything to do with her playing D1 ball? In the game that I watched, I had her as the biggest player on either team.

There you are incorrect . At the college level a coach DOES look at the swing as part of her hitting. My dd is 5.11. Do I think it helped her. Of course it did, what coach in his right mind wouldent want a 6 foot left hand 4 hole. Do I think if her swing sucked and she couldent hit would she still be as sought as she was?..... no way. At the college level if you do not produce there are others waiting for their chance and coaches arnt shy about informing you of that fact. Your daughters educational carrear may not be on the line if she dosent produce but you can bet his job is. I have said it before getting hung up on size at D1 is a mistake.

I just don't see how saying that a particular hitting instructor has students playing D1 softball proves that the swing they teach is high level on the order of a Bustos or Cochran. Does every hitting instructor that gave hitting lessons to a girl now playing D1 fastpitch mean they teach a Bustos type swing? I don't believe so. It could mean that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. That's why I prefer to use video. Either my DD matches the best or she doesn't. If she doesn't match then we have more work to do, regardless of how well she is currently hitting at the level she is playing at. I'm not going to wait until her swing breaks down before making adjustments. I prefer to stay ahead of the curve. IMO if her swing doesn't match the best, then it's a given that at some point it will break down.

The fact of the matter is he has produced CB. My comment was no one here has produced even that. And yet his works and words are constantly scoffed at by HI,s who cannot produce the same. Your outlook on hittng will work at the tb level. When your dd goes away to college and they pay her to hit a certain way and then tell her that if she dosent she isnt in the line up, you will not be able to keep her swing just as you want it. Get ready dad reality is coming fast if she accepts their scholarship money.

Also, when discussing hitting instructors that have multiple players playing D1 softball, we need to include Epstein and Slaught. Those two have probably had more influence on the quality of swings we are now seeing in fastpitch than anybody else.

I agree Find a girl that goes to either of them and post her Vid and let the people that read the forum see it.


Tim

 

[pstein]

I don't use the cue pressure between the knees. Former MLB player and hitting instructor Todd Greene who gives lessons North of Atlanta, used that term in the telephone interview I posted a link to. I'm not sure if he uses it in lessons, but he teaches the general action when giving lessons. The Dad/Coach that interviewed Todd said that his DD had not been taught that action by any of her previous instructors. As a former MLB player Todd clearly believes that holding the coil into toe touch is important.

I just tell the kids to keep the front side closed until they swing. I further tell them that when their brain says swing, the front side will want to open and to let it happen.

Please tell me you aren't keeping their lead knees closed until "GO!".

You can coil with a closed front side all you want, but it has to turn open to allow for the proper resistance. The proper resistance is moved to the hands. As a result, the COG lowers. (Some call this being sat) Bustos is the best example in softball, IMO.

However, you need to be VERY careful not to ACTIVELY open the lead leg. The front leg has a role. But it's done unconsciously, if the hitter is a decent athlete.

 

[softballphreak]

So who else teaches hitting? Must be at least a hundred or so batters at the D1 level who are really good. Who are the most highly rated hitting instructors? Are there less than 5? Less than 20?

Are the players recruited for their swings or for their potential to learn the college coach's swing?