Softball Swing vs. Baseball Swing - 2

[TeamPosey13]

Good hitting coaches don't teach hips opening... that is why Candrea says to stay square to the plate. The hips do open... but it is not a conscious effort... it is natural. There is a difference bt teaching, doing and watching videos. All are important... but a hitter should FEEL like their front hip is on the ball until follow through. When you look at video, however, it looks like the front hip opens up... which it does... but the hitter is not forcing this motion. That is what I mean when I say "good hitting instructors don't teach hips opening up." That is probably one of the worst things to teach a hitter... no offense. Then the kid flies open and hands drift backwards and there is no aggression to the ball. I can guarantee you that if you ask the big dogs in baseball and softball (A-Rod, Pujlos, Mendoza, Jung, Bustos) if they force their hips open... they will tell you just the opposite. I may be rambling a bit and don't know if I am answering the question... but great teachers know how to communicate "feels" rather than technical mechanics. That may be why you disagree with some of the stuff Candrea is saying bc he is putting it in terms of what the athletes should feel.

 

[BoardMember]

Posey, I can go with your assessment, with few caviots. I don't agree that good hitting coaches tell players to keep the hips square to the plate. Coach Mike does.

That is what I mean when I say "good hitting instructors don't teach hips opening up." That is probably one of the worst things to teach a hitter... no offense.

I totally disagree. Good hitting coaches understand why the hips should open. *NOT ROTATE*

Mind you, I didn't say "rotate the hips". I said the hips open. There is a HUGE difference. Promoting vs. stifling the opening of the hips clears the way for the lower body to do it's job.

Some of the best hitting coaches call it "forward by turning". Other high level coaches call it "rotating into plant". Some like myself simply call it "opening" into plant.

But we don't need a dead horse. We've now seen that ALL good hitters open into plant to some degree, and might think twice about the next time we tell someone "to make sure you stay square to the plate so you don't fly open". That cue is actually worse then the first.

Shall we move forward to the top side load?

Remember this?:

2. You cannot create seperation when you load. If your hands go backwards while you are loading... you are done and your bat drags and it is hard to catch up to the ball. Your hands load in one motion with your legs.

Do you still think the hands/shoulders load during the negative move like Coach Mike promotes? Or have I opened you up to how/when the best hitters create separation in this portion of the sequence?

If you aren't interested, no problem. Remember I said I just wanted to show you a few things that Coach Mike is a little behind the curve on.

I never said he was a bad coach, I only said he's a little behind the curve with regards to teaching proper hitting mechanics.........

Good hitting coaches don't teach hips opening... that is why Candrea says to stay square to the plate. The hips do open... but it is not a conscious effort... it is natural. There is a difference bt teaching, doing and watching videos. All are important... but a hitter should FEEL like their front hip is on the ball until follow through. When you look at video, however, it looks like the front hip opens up... which it does... but the hitter is not forcing this motion. That is what I mean when I say "good hitting instructors don't teach hips opening up." That is probably one of the worst things to teach a hitter... no offense. Then the kid flies open and hands drift backwards and there is no aggression to the ball. I can guarantee you that if you ask the big dogs in baseball and softball (A-Rod, Pujlos, Mendoza, Jung, Bustos) if they force their hips open... they will tell you just the opposite. I may be rambling a bit and don't know if I am answering the question... but great teachers know how to communicate "feels" rather than technical mechanics. That may be why you disagree with some of the stuff Candrea is saying bc he is putting it in terms of what the athletes should feel.

 

[MountieSB]

Board Member

Board Member wrote: "Do you still think the hands/shoulders load during the negative move like Coach Mike promotes?"

In your clips, you show both hitters getting separation (loading the hands and shoulders) at what Candrea calls "toe touch" or the positive linear move toward the pitcher (the stride).

In this clip, Candrea says exactly what your two clips show. He says to load the hands at toe touch, which is what you're saying, if I'm reading your post correctly.

YouTube - Loading the hands at Toe Touch

 

[KAT]

Question for board member

Board Member,

Do you have any video of a player doing this that doesn't stride? If so can you post it.

 

[BoardMember]

Board Member wrote: "Do you still think the hands/shoulders load during the negative move like Coach Mike promotes?"

In your clips, you show both hitters getting separation (loading the hands and shoulders) at what Candrea calls "toe touch" or the positive linear move toward the pitcher (the stride).

In this clip, Candrea says exactly what your two clips show. He says to load the hands at toe touch, which is what you're saying, if I'm reading your post correctly.

YouTube - Loading the hands at Toe Touch

Excellent SB! Glad to see this. This seems to directly conflict with his sport skool hitting video advising that the hands must move to a strong position during the negetive move and separation MUST NOT OCCUR during the positive move.

Direct Quote from Coach Mike in the Sport Skool Video at 8:29:

"Last but not least, a very common problem in this phase of hitting is young hitters will try to make a negetive move with the upper body and a positive move with the lower body.

And what will happen here is you start separating your power. I'm going to have Lovie demonstrate this, but if she tried to load her hands while striding at the same time your going to see her hands start separating from her lower body.

What happens here is we start getting long, and we can't be short to the ball.

So it's very important that we do that all in one unit.

This is clearly opposite of what he says in your clip.......

Thx for posting that on you tube..........I see you joined just an hour ago to put that up. I appreciate the effort to show that.......

I believe this is one of the most understood portions of the sequence. I see SO many young hitters being taught to load the hands during the negetive move, and start the hands during the positive move.....

Thx Again!

 

[BoardMember]

Board Member,

Do you have any video of a player doing this that doesn't stride? If so can you post it.

KAT, most no-stride hitters I see are somewhat "pre-loaded" with the hands. No stride hitters tend to generate power using an small exagerated hip cock and upper torso loading (turning inward slightly more).

See Michelle Smith and Albert Pujols:

 

[MountieSB]

Board Member

Thanks for the kind words. This discussion board is the best I've seen for our sport, and the posters seem very knowledgable. I coach high school, and we subscribe to Candrea's (Right View Pro) approach to hitting. Any time there are questions about this approach, they directly effect what we do with our hitters, so I really try to see where everyone's coming from.

I've learned that there are variations on themes for what approach is the best. I've picked up a lot from reading this forum and reading what posters like you have to contribute. I'm grateful for the information!

I haven't seen Candrea's sport skool videos, so if there is a contradiction, I wasn't aware of it. I like loading the hands at the positive move. That makes the most sense from my own experience and watching video of the best hitters.

Mike

 

[Hit Dr.24]

Boardmember, Why is it when you put the cursor on the hands in the clips the hands stay still and the body starts forward?

 

[tom.guerry]

Excellent and civil discussion !!!

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words.

One area of discussion here is how the hips work in loading, particularly in the twisting/coiling/separation/horizontal/"x-factor" aspect of loading. Many words for it.

Candrea is NOT behind the curve. He knows the patterns when he sees them and he instructs to get what works best. He may not be able to fully explain in words something that passes an objective scientific test, but then no one can. He is close enough for the natural patterns to capture/take over the teaching to produce the results (ball flight in given situation) necessary to succeed.

So, I would say in my opinion thinking Candrea is somehow "behind the curve" is a ridiculous statement.

It IS a statement or sentiment I myself had at one point before maturing. That;s just the process you go through looking for the truth. I thought the same thing in the past at various point about Epstein and Lau with regard to the MLB swing, but that was wrong. They all know it well enough to expedite learning by getting close enough to the pattern and by drills and training that resembles the live situation well enough to carry over to the stress of real/meaningful games/situations.

Now with regard to what happens/when in coiling and loading in the MLB pattern, actual motionanalysis data DOES exist. This is a summary of a database of MLB swing motionanalysis by the same company that studies the xfactor/x-factor stretch/"cusp" concept in golf:

Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum

This is data for the 2 plane type MLB stretch and fire mechanics which is a somewhat separate control of the upper and lower body programs controlled by upper body.

As POSEY says:

"Good hitting coaches don't teach hips opening... that is why Candrea says to stay square to the plate. The hips do open... but it is not a conscious effort... it is natural."

and as Board Member says, there is a difference between "opening" the hips and "rotating".

AND, Board member likes "opening the front foot" as something to look for.

In the MLB sequence, the body is COILED/LOADED in the SEQUENCE where the front foot opens (is opened by rotation of the front leg/femur) AND THEN the hips start "opening" (but not actively "rotating").

Epstein calls this "winding the rubberband" into front toe touch.

NOW, lets look at the Zig Motionanalysis summary of the MLB database which shows that there is, on average. 15 degrees of x-factor/separation as part of this opening without rotating, THEN there is an additional "x-factor stretch" of 12 degrees that results from the "GO"/rotation of the hips in a level plane opposed/"resisted" at the same time by the the shoulder tilt (handle torque already underway controlling timing/synch of coil/rubberbandwinding).
This gives an average of 27 degres of separation/torso twist which then reverses and turns the connected shoulder link.

The advantage of this type pattern is that hands stay back more and are in control of later/better matching planbe adjustment as compared to other patterns with less handle torque and minimal shoulder tilt.

 

[BoardMember]

Simple Answers to Simple Questions......

Boardmember, Why is it when you put the cursor on the hands in the clips the hands stay still and the body starts forward?

Doc, it's a time vs. reletive space thing. This simple question alway seems to be asked during this discussion.

During the TIME the body is moving forward, the hands are occupying the same space. In reality, this can ONLY happen if the hands are moving back at the same rate the body move forward.

A better indication of what the hands are doing relative to time is to watch the position of the hands vs. the body during the time the body move forward.

Think of it this way. I'm a passenger in a car traveling 20mph. If I reach into the backseat to grab my hat, is my hand moving forward or backward?

Answer: While my body is moving forward in time and space my hand is moving backward in that same time and space.

Another way to understand is to hold a pole with the top hand and stride forward. My hand continues to occupy the same same during the time my body is moving forward in space and time.

No let go of the pole, and keep your hand at the pole while striding forward. What do you have to do to make that happen?........

Therein lies the answer..........