Softball Swing vs. Baseball Swing - 2

[TeamPosey13]

I would like to see that.

 

[CoachB25]

Mark H,

Guererro is not loading in that video... he is unloading into the ball. He has already loaded and seperation occurs because your lower half begins to launch your arms and hands to the contact point.

And another thing... Deja Vu... one question... I forgot... you have coached teams to the Olympics and World Series right??? Didn't think so. Keep your comments to yourself.

TeamPosey13, I'm coming into this ignorant. Have you coached teams to the Olympics and World Series? Regarding the athletes that Coach Candrea was able to recurit, and taking nothing from him, they were probably pretty good when he signed them. Coach Candrea has done some good things including the changes he's made with regards to the RVP System. I think most posters have given him compliments as opposed to attacking him. The question was asked and others gave their opinions. Nothing more and nothing less. BoardMember, personally I can't wait since you never disappoint.

 

[TeamPosey13]

CoachB,

I never coaches teams to the Olympics... but I played in the Olympics and I know Candrea very well. He does get to recruit the best players in the nation... but he is great at developing the players. Look at Kristie Fox... at Az she was an All-American and now she is hitting under .200 for the Bandits. I don't know her situation (injured, etc.) but I can guarantee that Candrea had a lot to do with her hitting so well in college.

 

[BoardMember]

I would like to see that.

Ok great. When I get home I'll put up a few things for "us" to look at and discuss.

First, may I ask if you think the softball and baseball swing differ? If so, what are a few little things you think are different? Breifly please. I'm not asking for a book if you know what I mean.

If not, a simple no is good.

I only ask so I can put up stuff that best matches your beliefs.........

 

[Mark H]

And I'll just watch for now to avoid scattering the discussion unless I think I see a case of definitional misunderstanding or some such.

 

[BoardMember]

Ok, here we go. I'll start by putting up 3 different hitters with 3 different loading patters. That way we won't be "stuck" on a view from 1 hitter. They are arguably some of the best hitters in fastpitch.

Remember as we go, I'm only trying to help. I'm not here to argue......

I'd like to you watch these hitters carefully and give an answer on these two very important questions:

1.) Are the shoulders turning inward and/or hands loading back in relation to their starting position, AS they make their "positive move forward"?

2.) Are the hips opening INTO foot plant?

Remember, you've already said no to both.

Let's have a look:

 

[CoachB25]

CoachB,

I never coaches teams to the Olympics... but I played in the Olympics and I know Candrea very well. He does get to recruit the best players in the nation... but he is great at developing the players. Look at Kristie Fox... at Az she was an All-American and now she is hitting under .200 for the Bandits. I don't know her situation (injured, etc.) but I can guarantee that Candrea had a lot to do with her hitting so well in college.

Thanks for taking this in the manner it was intended. When I went to practice (16U ASA Class A) it dawned on me that you could have taken this differently.

 

[tom.guerry]

bm et al -

it's hard to have the mankin discussion if you are not willing to study what he is talking about.

you could say the same about my view on whatever englishbey teaches, BUT. i am very familiar with Nyman's theories and principles and i think i understand the "PCR BLUEPRINT" better than nyman becasue once you have the single vs 2 plane pattern understanding from golf, you get a better perspective on what nyman has discovered, or more exactly, been possessed by without having the objective/external perspective to know what he is describing. without the single vs 2 plane perspective, he is like the fish in the water and the old Zen koan - who discovered water ? it wasn't the fish.

to get back to the original question which is softball vs baseball swing. i think the amswer is best apporached in terms of the inborn/inherited natural patterns that exist for organizing the learning and execution of skills.

when i first got interested in fastpitch after years of baseball experience then a long hiatus, the fastpitch swing was
wayyyyyyyyyy different as a result of the prosoletyzing of asa and national tea, promoting a disconnected arm swing. swing down/shoulders level/keep weight back(impossible to do if you swing level unless you disconnect)/doorknocker grip/roll wrists through contact/palms out/back at contact/put ball in play/run fast/station to station/etc. YUK. still a big hangover from that era.

i am told that there was a women's fastpitch heavy bat/rotational swing era before this, but i have not seen a lot of video.

rotational means a total body swing powered by momentum transfer and connection that prevents deceleration prior to contact. these high level
(higher than disconnected arm swing) are similar to the golf swing where the patterns are best understood.

all these total body/connected/rotationa/side-on swings are based on the same fundamental model which is most simply represented by jorgensen's empirical model consiting of a blend of forward momentum of whole body,handle torque and connected compound pendulum action where torso rotates around a spinal axis.

within this model, there are 2 distinct dramatically different options based on how connection is made between body and limbs/bat/club;

-1 or single plane - swing bat around body in shoulder plane as body turns. this is middle out/body dominant. basic feel is "swing around', or

-2 plane where arms swing up and down as body turns back and forth. this is an arm dominant pattern. basic feel is "swing down".

when compared to the baseball/softball swing, the task and tool are different. you have to hit the moving ball with limited reaction time. on the other hand, you do not have to worry about the timing of clubface closure that is a requirement in golf.

the golf options are best described by Hardy in his PLANE TRUTH series. for a good golfer like BM, the simplest way to get up to speed is to review the set of how to DVD's that describe 1-setup,2-backswing/getting on plane,3-transition,4-downto contact/shotmaking, and 5- how the hips work in the swing(available on loan to interested swing junkies).

in baseball, the MLB pattern is a variation of the 2 plane pattern. in golf, the single plane pattern promotes a shallow plane which must have elements of the pattern that make the plane steep enough to not force unacceptable misses one way or the other if contact is only slightly early or late.

the 2 plane pattern promotes a very steep plane where hitting fat/thin is a problem and where timng of clubface closure becomes more and more unforgiving - too steep and yu have to flip whch is hard to get right. this pattern has to have elements that shallow out the plane.

in MLB. a long swing will not work, but, there is no penalty for making the plane steep, so you match the trajectory of the pitch as much as possible and do not have to worry about forcing a quicker and quicker clubface closure or crashing into the ground. you also have a longer sweetspot (williams "joyspot" - like hamilton squaring it at the derby this year).

the way you shorten the mlb swing is by folding the arms and using arm action plus shoulder tilt controlled by handle torque as best described by mankin.

this is why players need to learn to "swing down' to stick in the majors. swinging around means flying open and not being ably to deal with enough locations/speeds.

so the MLB pattern is very similar to 2 plane golf and much of hardy's 2 plane info applies to how body works. the other huge difference is arm action which is what dominates this swing and triggers the synch of the body for well timed loading and unloading ina consisyent swing.

in golf 2 plane, the lead arm swinging down is dominant, and when done well, you can hit down from the top in a way that increases load/stretch and shallows out the plane for consistent hitting with large margin of error.

in MLB. the arm action controlling the pattern is torquing of the handle primarily by forearms, but also with arm acton and shoulder tilt. the preparatory arm actin/body synch is very similar between overhand throw and hitting. the actual throw/GO is quite different.

the PCR/W blueprint, on the other hand encourages attributes of the 1 plane/single plane/swing around pattern. the single plane golf swing requires lots of early x-factor in the backswing which is unacceptable excessive counter-rotation in hitting. the blueprint uses more spin of body and hook of handpath to quicken the swing so that it is possible to have a swing that is quick enough to adjust swing by bend at waist. this tradeoff does not suffice in MLB which is why you only see the 2 plane type pattern in the best MLB power hitters. the mlb pattern requires keeping the hands back more with quicker stretch and fire acceleration that permits more red time and better plane matching. arm action similar to the overhand throw is key here in contrlling the inward turn and hand cock/"TIP" then torquing of the handle to untip/uncock to prepare for GO.

so what nyman has discovered is the simpler to model 1 plane type swing which can be successful in fastpitch given the hot light bats and the lack of good overhand throw mechanics. a good 2 plane/MLB pattern requires arm action that synchs the early load of the body, and in most cases this is first learned in a good overhand throw.

in the absence of a very good overhand throw and in the absence of the coach imposing the PCR blueprint, the highest level fastpitch swings tend to be 2 plane/lead arm pull dominant swings with batwrapping like benyi/etc. or flip back and forth between excessively counter=rotated (do not understand loading arm action that avoids spinal rotation, tilts shoulders and torques bat without unhinging wrists - learn this in overhand throw).

improving this pattern to the MLB pattern requires the early handle torque that mankin describes followed by the shoulder "TILT" best described by Epstein. the remainder of the swing is well described by many, especially Williams whoc focussed on hips and wrists and described the swing less in terms of the early downswing and more in terms of the later/matching "slight upswing" through contact. always the same pattern/upswing/plane matching/hips leading hands/hands staying in etc.

best description of overhand throwing arm action necessary to synch upper and lower body in the 2 plane pattern is by Hodge in his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape.

in the board member clips, bustos has good shoulder tilt and some pretty good handle torque.

the ULL girl has good shoulder tilt. not such good handle torque which gives her the more rigid "Box maintenance" look.

the Stanford hitter has the 1 plane type swing/minimal shoulder tilt with excessive counterrotation.


MARC -

thanks again for the great site. perhaps the purest single plane golf swing of all time was the Canadian George Knudson:

http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=14255

 

[BoardMember]

bm et al -

it's hard to have the mankin discussion if you are not willing to study what he is talking about.

you could say the same about my view on whatever englishbey teaches, BUT. i am very familiar with Nyman's theories and principles and i think i understand the "PCR BLUEPRINT" better than nyman becasue once you have the single vs 2 plane pattern understanding from golf, you get a better perspective on what nyman has discovered, or more exactly, been possessed by without having the objective/external perspective to know what he is describing. without the single vs 2 plane perspective, he is like the fish in the water and the old Zen koan - who discovered water ? it wasn't the fish.

to get back to the original question which is softball vs baseball swing. i think the amswer is best apporached in terms of the inborn/inherited natural patterns that exist for organizing the learning and execution of skills.

when i first got interested in fastpitch after years of baseball experience then a long hiatus, the fastpitch swing was
wayyyyyyyyyy different as a result of the prosoletyzing of asa and national tea, promoting a disconnected arm swing. swing down/shoulders level/keep weight back(impossible to do if you swing level unless you disconnect)/doorknocker grip/roll wrists through contact/palms out/back at contact/put ball in play/run fast/station to station/etc. YUK. still a big hangover from that era.

i am told that there was a women's fastpitch heavy bat/rotational swing era before this, but i have not seen a lot of video.

rotational means a total body swing powered by momentum transfer and connection that prevents deceleration prior to contact. these high level
(higher than disconnected arm swing) are similar to the golf swing where the patterns are best understood.

all these total body/connected/rotationa/side-on swings are based on the same fundamental model which is most simply represented by jorgensen's empirical model consiting of a blend of forward momentum of whole body,handle torque and connected compound pendulum action where torso rotates around a spinal axis.

within this model, there are 2 distinct dramatically different options based on how connection is made between body and limbs/bat/club;

-1 or single plane - swing bat around body in shoulder plane as body turns. this is middle out/body dominant. basic feel is "swing around', or

-2 plane where arms swing up and down as body turns back and forth. this is an arm dominant pattern. basic feel is "swing down".

when compared to the baseball/softball swing, the task and tool are different. you have to hit the moving ball with limited reaction time. on the other hand, you do not have to worry about the timing of clubface closure that is a requirement in golf.

the golf options are best described by Hardy in his PLANE TRUTH series. for a good golfer like BM, the simplest way to get up to speed is to review the set of how to DVD's that describe 1-setup,2-backswing/getting on plane,3-transition,4-downto contact/shotmaking, and 5- how the hips work in the swing(available on loan to interested swing junkies).

in baseball, the MLB pattern is a variation of the 2 plane pattern. in golf, the single plane pattern promotes a shallow plane which must have elements of the pattern that make the plane steep enough to not force unacceptable misses one way or the other if contact is only slightly early or late.

the 2 plane pattern promotes a very steep plane where hitting fat/thin is a problem and where timng of clubface closure becomes more and more unforgiving - too steep and yu have to flip whch is hard to get right. this pattern has to have elements that shallow out the plane.

in MLB. a long swing will not work, but, there is no penalty for making the plane steep, so you match the trajectory of the pitch as much as possible and do not have to worry about forcing a quicker and quicker clubface closure or crashing into the ground. you also have a longer sweetspot (williams "joyspot" - like hamilton squaring it at the derby this year).

the way you shorten the mlb swing is by folding the arms and using arm action plus shoulder tilt controlled by handle torque as best described by mankin.

this is why players need to learn to "swing down' to stick in the majors. swinging around means flying open and not being ably to deal with enough locations/speeds.

so the MLB pattern is very similar to 2 plane golf and much of hardy's 2 plane info applies to how body works. the other huge difference is arm action which is what dominates this swing and triggers the synch of the body for well timed loading and unloading ina consisyent swing.

in golf 2 plane, the lead arm swinging down is dominant, and when done well, you can hit down from the top in a way that increases load/stretch and shallows out the plane for consistent hitting with large margin of error.

in MLB. the arm action controlling the pattern is torquing of the handle primarily by forearms, but also with arm acton and shoulder tilt. the preparatory arm actin/body synch is very similar between overhand throw and hitting. the actual throw/GO is quite different.

the PCR/W blueprint, on the other hand encourages attributes of the 1 plane/single plane/swing around pattern. the single plane golf swing requires lots of early x-factor in the backswing which is unacceptable excessive counter-rotation in hitting. the blueprint uses more spin of body and hook of handpath to quicken the swing so that it is possible to have a swing that is quick enough to adjust swing by bend at waist. this tradeoff does not suffice in MLB which is why you only see the 2 plane type pattern in the best MLB power hitters. the mlb pattern requires keeping the hands back more with quicker stretch and fire acceleration that permits more red time and better plane matching. arm action similar to the overhand throw is key here in contrlling the inward turn and hand cock/"TIP" then torquing of the handle to untip/uncock to prepare for GO.

so what nyman has discovered is the simpler to model 1 plane type swing which can be successful in fastpitch given the hot light bats and the lack of good overhand throw mechanics. a good 2 plane/MLB pattern requires arm action that synchs the early load of the body, and in most cases this is first learned in a good overhand throw.

in the absence of a very good overhand throw and in the absence of the coach imposing the PCR blueprint, the highest level fastpitch swings tend to be 2 plane/lead arm pull dominant swings with batwrapping like benyi/etc. or flip back and forth between excessively counter=rotated (do not understand loading arm action that avoids spinal rotation, tilts shoulders and torques bat without unhinging wrists - learn this in overhand throw).

improving this pattern to the MLB pattern requires the early handle torque that mankin describes followed by the shoulder "TILT" best described by Epstein. the remainder of the swing is well described by many, especially Williams whoc focussed on hips and wrists and described the swing less in terms of the early downswing and more in terms of the later/matching "slight upswing" through contact. always the same pattern/upswing/plane matching/hips leading hands/hands staying in etc.

best description of overhand throwing arm action necessary to synch upper and lower body in the 2 plane pattern is by Hodge in his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape.

in the board member clips, bustos has good shoulder tilt and some pretty good handle torque.

the ULL girl has good shoulder tilt. not such good handle torque which gives her the more rigid "Box maintenance" look.

the Stanford hitter has the 1 plane type swing/minimal shoulder tilt with excessive counterrotation.


MARC -

thanks again for the great site. perhaps the purest single plane golf swing of all time was the Canadian George Knudson:

George Knudson

Ya ok tom........

 

[Slapper23]

Tom,

Excellent post! Very informative and lots of food for thought for anyone wanting to learn about the swing, in particular, the difference in swing patterns.

This site, thanks to Marc, is and should be a great one intended for open discussion of softball. Hopefully, the negatives of other sites in regard to open discussion will not gain traction here. Some may not agree with you, but I would hope they would give your views, in addition to the views of anyone, honest and respectful consideration.

Best regards,
Mike