Should pitching instructors only be pitchers?

[Hillhouse]

I believe a lot of people claim to be pitching instructors but only a very few are qualified to make that statement.

I completely agree. But the argument in question is what makes one qualified?

Bill Bollinger... in saying this it's going to sound like I'm taking a side in this argument and I'm not trying to. But the flaw in your analogy of using Dave Duncan is that the pitchers he sees are already MLB quality. At that point, much of his job is about strategy and statistics. I highly doubt he does much "teaching" of new things to these guys on their off days. Just as I highly doubt Chuck D'Arcy does much "teaching" new things to Cat Osterman. If there is a mechanical breakdown of the pitcher, I'm sure everyone sits down and studies video to determine what the differences are between the success and failures in the motion.

But again, there is a right way and a wrong way to use the body when throwing a ball (overhand or underhand). Most baseball pitchers look extremely similar in their mechanics. Same as most elite level FP pitchers do. You don't see Abbott, Osterman, Ueno, etc. doing all this goofy stuff being taught today and what is shown on the WCWS games: I.E jumping left, etc.

By the way, Dave Duncan is the best pitching coach. He did wonders for Rick Ankiel when his mechanics went crazy. ha ha ha. Yes, I'm being a smart a$$. I'm an Indians fan and we give up about April 15th each year.

Bill

 

[halskinner]

Hal, I will disagree with you on some of this but your last sentence has me confused. Are you saying it's proper to teach mechanics one way at a certain age, then change them later?

Bill

Hey Bill. Not saying that at all. Mechanics are the same, however, there are 'tweaks' that can be made in an 18u pitcher that seldom can be applied to 10u pitcher mainly because of the movement pitches, size of the hand, etc.

I made the example of turning a riseball into an up and in. Hard to do that with a 10u when few are even working on a riseball at that age.

 

[Mark H]

Mark, as you may know, this is where I differ with many others, although your sentence could be interpreted multiple ways. Many people believe that pitching mechanics are a personal thing and what works for Sally may not work for Jane. But the reality is, our bodies are designed to work a certain way. Someone who is not teaching the body to work in it's most optimal way is not teaching correctly, IMHO. The top pitchers in the world, males and females, get themselves into virtually the exact same positions. The manner in which they get into those positions is often unique to the individual. But the positions themselves are non-negotiable. I am not saying that someone who has never pitched before cannot teach these positions and know what to look for.

Agreed.

But it's baffling to me how many people teach the opposite of what the best pitchers are actually doing mechanically.

Happens in hitting too. Baseball and fp are alike in that they rely on old oral traditions to a great extent as opposed to say golf where the level of intellectual and scientific rigor has been applied to a much greater extent.

Personally, I believe this is because far too many people have 'dumbed down' our idea of success to an extent.

Well, I see it getting better in hitting. In fp I've always thought the level of mechanics instruction in pitching was much better than the level of instruction in hitting. But then the level of instruction in hitting was horrific for years and while that stuff still survives, it's less than before.

 

[sluggers]

As to Ernie's kids in his videos "not doing what he teaches", his earlier videos had used girls with exceptional talent. Ernie could tell the kid to stand on her head and throw the ball behind her back, and the girl could do it on the next pitch. If the kids were that good, then there is really not much of a challenge to teach throwing any pitch.

Ernie now uses less talented pitchers for his videos--which makes for a better instructional video.

Hillhouse: It seems many parents want athletic competition to be a band contest, where everyone gets a medal. Parents seem to need some external validation that their kids are great.

 

[ifubuildit]

Mr Hillhouse

The really sad part about being and Indians fan is that we got to watch 2 ex Indians pitchers start game one of the World Series for the Phils and Yanks.

Yes, those MUCH HATED Yanks.

Dana.

 

[Bill Bollinger]

I completely agree. But the argument in question is what makes one qualified?

Bill Bollinger... in saying this it's going to sound like I'm taking a side in this argument and I'm not trying to. But the flaw in your analogy of using Dave Duncan is that the pitchers he sees are already MLB quality. At that point, much of his job is about strategy and statistics. I highly doubt he does much "teaching" of new things to these guys on their off days. Just as I highly doubt Chuck D'Arcy does much "teaching" new things to Cat Osterman.

I first want to say... I have ZERO clue as to what it will take to be a good FP Pitcher. But just for debating here are some alternative viewpoints:

1. Dave Duncan has been known for years to be able to tack other clubs throw aways and make them into very effective pitchers (Ex. Dave Stewart, Dennis Eckersley, Bob Welch, LaMarr Hoyt). These are just his Cy Young Award Winners. None of them were game changing pitchers prior to working with Duncan. If you looked at each pitcher's fundamentals prior to working with Duncan, they were not significantly different after working with Duncan... So what did he do differently?

2. You are correct in saying part of his job is working with strategy and stats, but if that was also 100% accurate then you could argue that a computer would be a good pitching coach? It could be programmed to make the best decision or recommendation to a player.

3. I would argue that what makes a good coach is NOT just teaching fundamentals. Like you described, most MLB quality pitchers have a basic set of abilities. However, I would say that there is a significant difference between players and their own fundamentals. What "works" for one many times doesn't work for another. God makes each of us differently.

4. It is my fundamental belief there is so much more to being a good coach than knowing fundamentals.

5. The day Cat Osterman THINKS she knows everything to know about pitching is the day she becomes less effective as a pitcher. The same could be said of Hank Haney and Butch Harmon with Tiger Woods. WHY does Tiger Woods pay a swing coach? What can those guys teach Tiger?

But again, there is a right way and a wrong way to use the body when throwing a ball (overhand or underhand). Most baseball pitchers look extremely similar in their mechanics. Same as most elite level FP pitchers do. You don't see Abbott, Osterman, Ueno, etc. doing all this goofy stuff being taught today and what is shown on the WCWS games: I.E jumping left, etc.

I am not so sure I would completely agree. I agree for the most part, so don't get me wrong. There are some basics when working with the masses as to what is right or wrong when throwing a ball. But.... at the end of the day we are playing a game. A game which when discussing being a pitcher is about getting outs. Those outs are many times accomplished with deception, confidence, gamesmenship, and a hundred more things. Here are a couple examples of Hall of Fame Professional Athletes who who did NOT execute something in their sport fundamentally correct: Luis Tiant (Pitcher), Juan Marichal (Pitcher), Jim Furyk (Golfer - Swing), Sam Snead (Golfer - Putting), Jerry West (Basketball - Free Throws).

A good coach helps players get closer to their god given level of potential. For some players it is working with their fundamentals, for some it is working on their mental skills, for some it is being like their lucky charm. Why does Tiger Woods need a swing coach? Who knows... The other interesting question would then become: Would Tiger Woods be the best coach ever made if due to the fact he is currently the best golfer in the world? Does a good swing coach have to be the best golfer?

Bill

P.S. Keep in mind again, I come here for help from you guys. I am no expert when it comes to being a FP Pitcher, but figured I would just chime in...

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

One thing to keep in mind is that not only is my DD learning from her female PC, but the parent is too. I attend every lesson and ask lots of questions about game situations that have happened earlier in the week. For example, one game we had a new Blue, that had a very low strike zone which affected my DD who is used to getting the high strike call. She would look over to me after every called ball she thought was a high strike. I asked PC what DD should have done in this situation and she suggested that when she pitched, she would get clarification (not challenge but understand) from Blue about what his strike zone was, where she was missing, etc. If I (we) knew to ask this question maybe my DD would not have been so frustrated on the mound. You may say that any decent PC could have given this same advice, maybe? However, I am not just paying for mechanics instruction, I am paying for game tested experience and a sounding board for my questions now and in the future.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

I am paying for game tested experience and a sounding board for my questions now and in the future.

And see, that is what I give. I even started playing again this past season and boy, was it an eye opener. It was a lot different than sitting on the bench and seeing what someone should do. I was actually trying to do it.

Also, SoCal, tell your DD not to look over at you. That can really upset the ump. Have the catcher communicate with him and then with the pitcher.

If you are the one catching her at home, do not sit on a tall bucket. Sit on something low, so you are about the same size as her catcher.

I like to learn and try things. I learn something almost every day about softball.

 

[Mark H]

Also, SoCal, tell your DD not to look over at you. That can really upset the ump. Have the catcher communicate with him and then with the pitcher.

Exactly right. Good post.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Amy - great points. Don't want to start new thread, but I did wonder about DD pitching high because of me sitting on a tall bucket (trying to save my lower back!). My glove & PC is probably 1 - 2 feet higher up than a typical catcher in a crouch position. Hmm...

Re: catcher talking to ump, our players are only 8U so its not realistic for them to talk directly to the ump (maybe when they are a little older) but I can speak to the ump and relay the message to my P. I think if you show Blue respect they won't mine the inquiry? Totally agree that P should not look over to the coaches when they perceive a bad call, they just need to work through it and take what strike zone they are given.