Science people vs what the eye sees, simpletons

[Rocketech1]

During the late 70s and 80's I wore a badge and a gun. My department sent to a class once on recognizing people with anger / violence tendencies. An FBI psychologist put the class on. One of the first things he said was, "People of low intelligence ALWAYS attack what they do noy know or understand", he quoted a world famous psychologist but I dont recall the name.

I will not call anyone stupid, like a few ofd the eggheads on this board have done to some. I will say you are uninformed and your lack of experience is showing. Anyone that will refer to a riseball as 'The'' riseball, or in any way speak like there is only one, is very inexperienced.


I have only seen a cut riseball actually rise a hansful of times. It is just a fastball angled high. The bent fiungered riseball, thats a different story.

"Forgive them Lord for they know not of what they speak."

Go watch more games and find a pitcher that throws a bent fingered riseball and witnessit for yourself. Dont wait for me to post a video because even if I did some would say it had been doctored.

Hal - while I appreciate your posts, you lose a lot of credibility when you post statements like the below:

"Ever heard a ball spin so fast it hissed? I have heard many do that in my time. One was thrown very fast, hissed really loud and it was like the brakes were put on the ball travel. It stopped about 6 feet in front of the batter after it slowed down. It sat there in mid air for MAYBE close to a second, then it jumped up about two feet and then dropped to the ground.

If I would not have seen it, I never would of believed it."

Now I understand why you think a rise ball "rises".

 

[Rocketech1]

During the late 70s and 80's I wore a badge and a gun. My department sent to a class once on recognizing people with anger / violence tendencies. An FBI psychologist put the class on. One of the first things he said was, "People of low intelligence ALWAYS attack what they do noy know or understand", he quoted a world famous psychologist but I dont recall the name.

I will not call anyone stupid, like a few ofd the eggheads on this board have done to some. I will say you are uninformed and your lack of experience is showing. Anyone that will refer to a riseball as 'The'' riseball, or in any way speak like there is only one, is very inexperienced.


I have only seen a cut riseball actually rise a hansful of times. It is just a fastball angled high. The bent fiungered riseball, thats a different story.

"Forgive them Lord for they know not of what they speak."

Go watch more games and find a pitcher that throws a bent fingered riseball and witnessit for yourself. Dont wait for me to post a video because even if I did some would say it had been doctored.

Hal - while I appreciate your posts, you lose a lot of credibility when you post statements like the below:

"Ever heard a ball spin so fast it hissed? I have heard many do that in my time. One was thrown very fast, hissed really loud and it was like the brakes were put on the ball travel. It stopped about 6 feet in front of the batter after it slowed down. It sat there in mid air for MAYBE close to a second, then it jumped up about two feet and then dropped to the ground.

If I would not have seen it, I never would of believed it."

Now I understand why you think a rise ball "rises".

 

[Ken B]

Low intelligence should not be confused with ignorance using the classic definition. Suggesting someone that someone who is ignorant has low intelligence is not much different from suggesting they are stupid.

Regarding a rise ball that has an upward arcing trajectory; I'll claim ignorance until I see proof. I enjoy chasing the occasional unicorn and would be thrilled to actually see it.

 

[Cannonball]

are you suggesting that a riseball cannot rise?

why?

why can the ball break left, right, down, but not up. the reason a ball breaks is due to the location of the area of drag behind the ball. That location is dependent upon the spin.

A rise ball will not break as hard as a slider, curve or drop because it has to work against gravity, but physics certainly says it will rise

ssarge, who once frequented this site did all of the physics and essentially said the opposite. If one searched back in the archives of this site, he has all of the equations there. I don't care to but do realize that the Magnus Effect will help balls fall while at the same time, it would take incredible energy for one to make a softball rise given that the ball is losing speed from the moment it leaves the hand.

JD, please feel free to post any physics evidence you have. BTW, I am aware that a Jugs machine was used to make a Wilson softball rise but the conclusion of many studies, and just google "does the rise ball rise" and you will see that no one has produced evidence that shows a human making a rise ball rise. There is plenty of info there for you to read. Oh, and yes, I have played Fastpitch and against some people who are in the ASA Hall of Fame.

 

[starsnuffer]

CurveBall Expert Version - 1.7e beta

-W

 

[redhack]

I love it. Science versus in-practice. I am a science geek so I love explaining what is happening in those terms. To me it all makes sense. However I think the biggest thing that is always missed is...

The science of sight. For some reason many on here view sight as an absolute. When every scientist knows it is the brains interpretation of what is happening. It is for this very reason that we have magic shows, illusionist and so on. Our eyes only have a partial image of what is happening, the brain makes up the rest.

The goal is simply to fool the brain for that 1/10 of a second until it is too late. To say one pitch does not work or another does not rise is a fallacy. The truth is the result as related to the experience of the batter.

Each pitcher ends up with some uniqueness in relation to the illusion of their pitches. And each batter trains their mind to discard false input and correctly interpret what is happening.

If an observer sitting at 90 degrees to the plane of pitch observers that the pitch did NOT rise, so what. If the batter "thinks" it did, then game over. Pitcher wins.

To say a screw ball for a 13u pitcher does not work is also a fallacy. If the 13u batters brain cannot process what is actually happening, then again game over, pitcher wins. Does not even matter how much it moved.

TO me pitching is the sport version of magic tricks. But I never quit figured out why so much interest on what is happening with a pitch. When the real question is what the brain thinks it is seeing, in relation to what age, helps girls correctly interpret it correctly.

 

[JDBerry]

ssarge, who once frequented this site did all of the physics and essentially said the opposite. If one searched back in the archives of this site, he has all of the equations there. I don't care to but do realize that the Magnus Effect will help balls fall while at the same time, it would take incredible energy for one to make a softball rise given that the ball is losing speed from the moment it leaves the hand.

JD, please feel free to post any physics evidence you have. BTW, I am aware that a Jugs machine was used to make a Wilson softball rise but the conclusion of many studies, and just google "does the rise ball rise" and you will see that no one has produced evidence that shows a human making a rise ball rise. There is plenty of info there for you to read. Oh, and yes, I have played Fastpitch and against some people who are in the ASA Hall of Fame.

The physics evidence is in my head. You'll have to forgive me. I'm not one to take what anyone says and just leave it at that. I won't toot my own horn but I do enjoy the cathartic process of thinking through things sometimes. But I'm not here to prove/disprove. If I don't make sense, just disregard me. I'm no professional, scientist, physicist... I'm just a dad that some people think thinks too much.

Ok. Let's break this down. You admit a jugs machine was used to make a softball rise, correct? So, it can happen.

Let's keep this on plane. The physics is there for a rise ball to rise. It doesn't matter if you've never seen it or not. The physics is there. It's no different than the physics for the other breaking pitches. It just a lower pressure above to generate more lift since it has to counteract gravity.

Therefore, saying that a rise ball is impossible is incorrect. I'm not willing to say that a man can't throw a rise ball and won't go so far to say that a woman has not. Yes, a rise ball has to have more forward velocity to generate the required lift and it may be that someone can generate the forward velocity and spin rate to make it happen.

On the trajectory thing, give this a thought. Rise balls are generally thrown on an upward trajectory, correct? Many think that's just the pitcher trying to make it look like a rise ball. Well, the ball is on an upward trajectory so that the path is nearing flat as it approaches the plate. The goal being that the break would occur when the ball flattens, giving the so-called "hop".

 

[Cannonball]

Surely to goodness there are videos of the sideview of a riseball out there so that some of us who do not know what we are talking about can see and measure it. After all, video wasn't created yesterday. I hope some of you veterans will recall the video I referred to with Ssarge. I know that one example he used was Sarah Pauly's rise. I tried to search the older posts but my computer keeps coming back with error messages. Oh and one more thing, some graduate student did an indept study that Ssarge cited and the conclusion was that the best that could be achieved was a "constant" on the angle from release. Again, there should be a lot of scientific info out there that can support the rise of the rise ball if, indeed, it does rise. So it should be easy enough to produce:

• A side view video of a rise ball rising.

• A scientific study from someone trained in physics to prove why the rise ball rises.

Is that asking too much?

 

[Ken B]

But I never quit figured out why so much interest on what is happening with a pitch.

1) Because its good fun.
2) Because understanding what it takes to make a ball move can lead to better movement.

For example:

If I could understand what it takes to get this much movement, and be able to teach it, kids could benefit.

 

[Cannonball]

JD, I once shot a softball through a concrete wall from a Jugs machine and so, perhaps some human can do it but I'm skeptical at best. If you can't see the difference between what a two wheel jugs machine can do and a human arm then really there isn't much for me to add.

Take care,

Darrell