Rotational Hitting

[RayR]

But I don't think Epstein talks anything about the box. Or even tells hitters where their hands and arms should be. Not in his instructional materials anyway. he simply tells them to rest the bat on the deltoid.

Wow, this is very interesting. Maybe we're talking about something different.

I have Epsteins standard DVD material and as I've studied and used it over the last four years I understand Mike to believe that maintaining the box is critical to the swing. He places a lot of emphasis on it. So much so that he states that if a hitter allows his hands to get too far away from their body they have lost their swing.

When I use the term "box" I am referring to the position of the arms from launch to contact. Epstein often uses the term "being in the envelope" to describe the box.

I know there is a lot of disagreement with Epstein on how he keeps the preload part of the swing simple. Many believe performing drills with the back elbow slotted and the bat on the deltoid of the back shoulder is wrong and teaches bad habits. I have not found that to be the case.

Epstein's drills sacrifice some scap loading in the interest of maintaining the box from launch to contact. In my daughter's case as she became comfortable with her new mechanics she started to scap load naturally.

IMO scap loading is a natural movement that the body wants to do. I have found it's hard to keep kids from doing it. I just gave my daughter the green light to start working on scap loading again. We tried it last year but she kept letting the bat head drop when her hands went back so I made her go back to the bat on the deltoid setup.

She is now 12 and it's amazing how much better her motor skills are from a year ago. I'm very encouraged that she will now be able to keep her bat head angle correct as she scap loads. Last night we were working on the scap load in conjunction with the hips, and she said for the first time "Dad I can actually feel the whip effect you've been talking about".

Thank you mother nature!

Can you describe the scap loading you see your daughter doing? I just want to see if we agree on what it is.

 

[RayR]

Teach keeping front foot closed and thinking that hip turn opens the front foot is getting the sequence wrong and degrading the pattern.

I disagree. Teaching to keep the front foot closed if there is a pattern of flipping it open is needed to help a player figure it out. There is a progression to this. Telling a player that is flipping the foot to just coil and externally rotate the front leg to open the hips does not cut it. She will never learn to use the legs/hips/torso correctly unless there is a constraint placed upon her to develop a new pattern.

Had a girl today that could not keep from dropping the bat head before swinging no matter what I tried. Even when I had her start the hands lower so that she would not have time to lay the barrel off before the swing, she figured out how to by starting the hands earlier in the sequence to get this done. Crappy pattern so ingrained it did not matter what I tried. You what works? Telling her to keep the bat against the shoulder and turn to swing. Is this what I see as a final product? No, but it will be a starting point to eliminate the bat head dropping that led to bat drag. Then we can move on.

Same thing for girls who are used to flipping the front foot to start the swing. If you allow the foot to be open they will just keep figuring out a way to not use the hips to power the swing.

Tom, you really need to work some real, live, breathing youth hitters to understand the difficulty in changing ingrained motor patterns

 

[Mark H]

I disagree. Teaching to keep the front foot closed if there is a pattern of flipping it open is needed to help a player figure it out. There is a progression to this. Telling a player that is flipping the foot to just coil and externally rotate the front leg to open the hips does not cut it. She will never learn to use the legs/hips/torso correctly unless there is a constraint placed upon her to develop a new pattern.

Had a girl today that could not keep from dropping the bat head before swinging no matter what I tried. Even when I had her start the hands lower so that she would not have time to lay the barrel off before the swing, she figured out how to by starting the hands earlier in the sequence to get this done. Crappy pattern so ingrained it did not matter what I tried. You what works? Telling her to keep the bat against the shoulder and turn to swing. Is this what I see as a final product? No, but it will be a starting point to eliminate the bat head dropping that led to bat drag. Then we can move on.

Same thing for girls who are used to flipping the front foot to start the swing. If you allow the foot to be open they will just keep figuring out a way to not use the hips to power the swing.

Tom, you really need to work some real, live, breathing youth hitters to understand the difficulty in changing ingrained motor patterns

Exactly. Sounds like the words of someone with actual students and not just theories.

 

[Mike]

I just watched a bunch of hitting clips and if you pause video of great hitters right at contact, the front foot is mostly closed and only opens up as a result of follow through. I am a young coach moving through the ranks with my daughters. ( currently at 10-u ) I tell them that the front foot is like a barn door and if you open it up to soon then you let all the power out. Much like pitchers they need to keep a strong front side.

Mike

 

[tom.guerry]

MTS-

I think it is almost always easier to teach the front foot/hip sequence first in overhand throw.

Kids learn to get sideways and how to break the hands and how to cock the hips and how the upper and lower body synch with the stride.

You can have them lead with the heel to keep from getting the front leg isolated, but the real thing telling the legs what to do is what the arms are doing with the legs mirroring the action.

Before the stride foot comes down there is the "stepover move" which starts with the external rotation of the front leg followed by hips opening, not the other way around. This is synched to back arm external rotation if timing of coil is good.

This is best explained by Hodge in BIOMECHANICBASEBALL.

Same sequence and same early back arm action sequence controls loading in both the overhand throw and swing.

The thing that tells the scaps to load right rather than spinal rotation/excessive counterrotation is starting the arm action right with INternal rotation and ABduction, just the way you break the hands for the overhand throw.

In throwing this early arm action is symmetric.

In hitting it is alternating/reciprocating/back and forth which is why the swing is preceded by "rhythmic (alternating) preswing activity" as Lau Sr best observed.

Upper and lower body arm and leg action synch right away in crosswise fashion so when back arm internally rotates, front leg internally rotates (turn in of front knee).

When back elbow lifts (ABduction), front leg lifts/spreads.

When back arm externally rotates, lead leg externally rotates.Both in trowing and hitting.

Much easier to learn in throwing.

If Well is getting better results and scap loading instead of spinal rotation back is happening as a "no-teach" it could be becasue the overhand throw is getting better and the body will use the best tools available.

this unfortunately is less likely in fast[pitch than baseball becasue girls tend to get really poor thrwoing advice/experience, but who knows.

In any event, what being described ae the various elephants/patterns that are the inborn option. The body wants to do this stuff and it gets easier to find the pattern and develop it if you know what it is and what it isn't.

 

[tom.guerry]

Well-

The "BOX" cue is NOT an Epstein feature/"CUE"..

Epstein likes to emphasize how the elbows work together and for adjustment, but he alos likes "soft elbows" which is not like the "box".

The first place I heard the box emphsized abd used well was in Dusty Baker's work.

The cue was then appropriated by the Nyman/setpro/PCR blueprint and really botched up, used to try to force a swing powered middle by turning the bat by scap/shoulder turn (PCR/1plane pattern) rather than the shoulder TILT that Epstein describes (MLB).

See Nyman:

http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthr...=building+code


"Simplicity of the swing comes from understanding that a high-level swing is nothing more than making sure that the mass of the bat (sweet spot) travels in a plane of rotation parallel to a plane that is “scribed out” by a rod or stick passing through both shoulders extending in the same direction as would be the bat passing over home plate."

How did you fix your bat drag problem?
I have an 11 year old and we have been working on this issue for awhile now. Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated.
Almost without exception bat drag is the result of the player dropping the barrel of the bat. Dropping of the barrel is an attempt on the part of the player to position the bat without using their posture. Dropping of the barrel the bat is also consequence of them learning how to swing using their hands to position the bat or should I say move the bat through space and time.

So the first step in correcting bat drag is to correct posture problems i.e. the player has to learn how to use postural adjustment.

Once postural adjustment is understood that it simply a matter of staying connected at the initiation of the swingby the upper body i.e. maintaining the box.

 

[tom.guerry]

If you watch Candrea in this clip, note the front foot opens when the back elbow starts down, what Slaught calls "the beginning of rotation" and what Epstein calls "winding the rubberband".

Candrea's hips ae opening following the front leg before the front heel gets very weighted.

he is trying to swing like he throws which is why the sequence is this way.

http://www.georgiascout.net/REFERENCE LIBRARY.htm

see #80, flat foot/candrea drill

 

[Wellphyt]

Can you describe the scap loading you see your daughter doing? I just want to see if we agree on what it is.

When she strides her hands go back and the bat head is slighty angled towards the pitcher. The bottom arm wants to strighten some as the hands go back which I'm not sure I like at this age, but well see. If she can consistently get her arms correctly repositioned at launch then I'm fine.

I'm trying to help her understand that the more complexity we add to her swing the more she needs to practice to keep it working correctly. Sometimes she doesn't practice as much as I would like.

 

[Wellphyt]

I just watched a bunch of hitting clips and if you pause video of great hitters right at contact, the front foot is mostly closed and only opens up as a result of follow through.

My daughter's front foot when planted looks similar to Chipper Jones, Ryan Howard, Sosa, Mantle and Mays to name a few.

The front foot of Ortiz, Williams, Delgado and Pujols are open more than my daughter's.

The front foot of Bonds is a little more closed.

 

[Zebraaaaa]

Englishbey*****

Listen to Mark H.........Englishbey al the way. Rotation will be broken down into micro parts. Proof is in the pudding...this guy is Bill Cosby on steroids, but not.