Rise ball young pitcher

[halskinner]

I know 3 different ways to grip and throw a riseball. Depending on how they are taught to be thrown will depend on the speed you throw that one with to have it actually rise. I have taught 10 year olds to throw one that worked really well with the infamous 11 inch balls that are not supposed to move at all because of low seams.

There is no such critter as 'THE' riseball. There is such a critter as 'A' riseball. As I said, I know three ways to throw it and teach it and they are all very different from each other.

Sneaky Softball Pitching | Unconventional Tactics to Dominate Hitterssneakysoftballpitching.com

 

[starsnuffer]

Increased rotation can offset decreased speed, IE the slower the pitch, the faster the ball will have to spin. Faster pitches can make due with less spin to have the same "movement" (dont' want to get into that debate here). Of course, the best pitchers will have superior speed and superior spin rates. Keep in mind that a less then perfect spin access will also detract from the rotational speed. IE with 6-12 rotation being perfect, 7-12 will need to spin much faster to have the same effect.

This is all, of course, assuming that by riseball we're not just talking about a pitch released low and aimed high in the strikezone. .. cos that's not really a riseball, no matter how twisted the pitchers wrist is at release.

-W

 

[Coach Stan]

Tonite I had three 9-10 year olds who I have been working with on the riser and they were able to get the ball to rise and they are not hitting 50 yet. Of course the spin is not 12-6 but they are slowly getting there. I do not know where the 50 mph as the bench mark has come about. But I have never used speed as a determining factor on when to teach the rise. I do however make it a point that each student who I do teach the rise have good mechanics and has good location on their FB and CH.

 

[Lozza]

Can you post video? Because I'm having a very, very hard time believing that a nine year old can throw a consistent change ball, let alone a rise ball.

 

[stv]

Damage to younger pitchers?

Thanks for all the replies. What about hurting a young girls arm by throwing CB,SB,RB?
In old posts they talk about waiting after puberty (mid teens) to teach these pitches. Due to growth plates, bones ect. Based on Doctors recommendations. Sounds scary to a Parent. I was thinking... What would those doctors say about Olympic Gymnasts. Look at the beating and stretching their joints take. We all know they are and start out as very young girls. (Not to sure if they have a Bull Whip action though.)

We all know that Mastering the mechanics of the (FB, CU, Peel Drop{we call super spin}, Off speed) are the first pitches to learn. (We've also heard they can go far and be great with these.) If they know when and where...
To the question what pitch should be next: (Young Pitcher my case 11yo)
Should be learn to master location of the pitch (corners, high low) and what to throw when, based on count or the girl, gamesmanship, poise ect.
Not to mention the girls also need to be working on perfecting their other skills if they expect to remain competitive and move on.
Fielding @ their other positions, game situations. Proper batting mechanics, bunting, slapping ect.
Its really a lot of stuff and time for a young girl, now that I think about it.

Its natural for us coaches and dads to want to teach other movement pitches when we see their mechanics are ready. But maybe they really are not ready until they master more of the other phases of the game?

Even after writing this I'm thinking what would be a movement pitch that would be a more natural movement. Would it be the screw ball thrown with a side snap as apposed to the twist? But then again we've been preaching power line why would we want them off of it this soon in their development. A lot to think about...

 

[chinamigarden]

My DD has been attending a pitching camp at a local college (top 10 division II school) . 4 Sundays in a row. Its the first exposure she has had to pitching coaching. From the 3 sessions we have attended, these are the facts that stand out.

They don't throw fastballs, the girls were told this by the head coach.
They only want their pitcher to focus on 3 pitches that move. And they don't seem to care too much which 3. Forget about the rest
You have to command those 3 pitches, up/down, left/right. You have to be able to place it where ever it is called.
When recruiting they look at girls with "10 pitches" but they can't determine from spin or movement which of the 10 are which.

Their top pitcher last year had a .58 ERA and won 42 games she threw 2 kinds of drop balls and a change. Those were her 3. The roll over drop was her best pitch but she had to throw a peel drop to help disguise the change.

What we learned from this so far is, develop a few pitches not a lot of them. But develop those few so you can command them. Its more then knowing how to release the ball, its knowing for sure where its going.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Tonite I had three 9-10 year olds who I have been working with on the riser and they were able to get the ball to rise and they are not hitting 50 yet.

Can we all agree that it is a physics impossibility for a rise ball to "rise" and what is actually happening is the ball is not dropping as much as a standard fastball for example because the Magnus Effect is working a little bit against gravity when the ball has backspin (6-12 spin) vs. fastball (12-6 spin) with forward spin.

Understanding this point is important for this discussion because pitchers may think they don't have an effective rise ball just because it doesn't "rise", "banana up", or "jump over the bat", etc. Let's be honest here and not skate around the issue. It only confuses our DD trying to learn this new pitch. By the way, if someone has a scientific study or article that refutes my assumption above I would most certaintly like to read it.

 

[CoachFP]

Those most important thing about the riseball is the angle of release. Second is the spin that one gets. A good angle of release is different than letting the ball go so it becomes a high pitch. (You can do the latter without a good angle upwards.) Having said that, an 11 or 12 year old can be taught to angle the pitch with enough of an incline to make the ball move up and can get the appropriate backspin to help keep the angle as true as possible. Forget the esoteric discussion of Magnus Effect etc., the bottom line is this version of a rise ball is different than a pitch without correct spin being thrown high. The speed of the pitcher will determine the angle necessary to get the ball to go up. Lesser speed, a larger angle. Basic physics.

 

[starsnuffer]

The 50mph guideline is given because of this:

A ball must be thrown a particular speed in order to throw 86 feet. Why 86 feet? This is in order to keep the peak of the pitch arch at 43' where the release is about 2' from the ground and the peak is about 4' from the ground. This is what makes the riseball seem like it is actually rising.

Without any spin at all, this speed should be somewhere around 75-80mph. What very high spin rates will do is introduce some magnus effect which, in the case of the riseball, helps offset gravity a bit and let the ball "hang", "float", or "maintain a flat trajectory" (insert your adverb here). 50mph is a good guideline because this allows this proper 86 foot pitch to be achieved when a good amount of 6-12 spin is introduced.

Anything less then 50mph is going to reach a peak arc at a point somewhere between the pitcher and home plate, and therefor is not a riseball.

-W

 

[bigboyk]

If I'm understanding all this rise ball info correctly, it appears the rise ball and a plain high hard fast ball are closely related. If the ball is released by pitcher at mid thigh, and the target is above the belly button the pitch will rise from point of release to target. i realize that spin has some effect but I watched a girl pitch in a batting cage that proclaims(her father proclaims) has a nasty rise ball and when viewed several times it appears to stay on line to the target. I could not see any lift in the pitch, and she throws in 60 to 62 mph range.
A lot of dads and PC calls a high fast ball a rise, so is there a huge difference between rise and high fast ball??