Pitchers hips?

[javasource]

Can someone give a brief summary of overlap as used here on the boards with respect to fastpitch/IR. I've seen its usage, particularly by in Java's threads, but to paraphrase of Inigo Montoya, I'm not sure the word means what I think it means. ; )
Thanks

Overlap...

Opposing motions that create elastic energy.

Example: Shin/knee or body heading forward... while the arm is backswinging.
Example: Stride leg/foot starts descending to the ground... while the arm is heading UP.
Example: Stride foot externally rotating prior to plant... while throwing shoulder is still rotating "open".

Make sense?

 

[Ken B]

Already too long but I would simply encourage you to try it yourself. Try to emphasize opening your hips and then quickly closing them to 45 degrees or so while pitching. Then try to just simply land with them at 45 and muscle the ball with your shoulder/arm. I experienced a big difference and my arm/shoulder did not feel like it was working at all. It was but it was secondary. It was being pulled by my core/hips.

S3

Are you trying this full motion? There is a big difference in creating core torque when the back foot has connection to the ground vs being dragged. You feel leverage to torque coming from the ground/foot when just stepping into the pitch or if stationary. You feel whole body creating it in full motion.

I'll go out on a limb and say that core torque is more of a result rather than a conscious effort. In most cases, if all else is well, the core will torque. Osterman and Ueno take it to the max while staying legal:

 

[Ken B]

I think I need to go back and reread and watch his videos? How are you creating the torque? If you are using the glove side (whirl/adduction) and pulling the thigh to thigh, you get hip torque. Heading to bed and will try to get back on this one--likely Monday... Meanwhile, hopefully Rick can stop by and comment.

Have a great weekend!

 

[STRIKE3]

I think I need to go back and reread and watch his videos? How are you creating the torque? If you are using the glove side (whirl/adduction) and pulling the thigh to thigh, you get hip torque. Heading to bed and will try to get back on this one--likely Monday... Meanwhile, hopefully Rick can stop by and comment.

Have a great weekend!

10-4 Ken. Have a great weekend!!!

 

[jryan15]

Thanks for circling back Ken. Not sure I'm on the same page, but I commend your efforts and willingness to try what I was putting out there. I will take some time to try and consider the process that you have described. I feel like there could be some under-the-hood processes that might link together what both of us are describing.

Did you check out the youtube video that I posted?

To me, the most important aspect of that video is that all of the rotational movements that I made was created only by pulling backwards. Obviously I pulled back to coil, but even in the part where my hips drove FORWARD (what most people would call uncoiling), I was still pulling backwards.


I have some feedback on the Harper clip, but will take time to prepare and post.

 

[jackstarling]

Thanks to all who responded.

 

[jryan15]

Overlap = Hips rotating forward ahead of the upper body.

Maybe other stuff can be called overlap, but the overlap that we all want our athletes to acheive is the version above. IMO it is the only version that is important enough to be referred to in the noun form...

Let Yukiko show us the way...

Overlap is a result of the back interacting with the rear leg via the pelvis ("K" to reverse "k").

A couple ways to acheive fake overlap:

1. Manual twisting of the hips while keeping the shoulders still

- Pushing the rear hip forward
- Dumping the front hip​

2. Plant the front leg and rotate around it (two legged / double pivot point)

These might look ok on the surface, but the true form of overlap happens automatically as a byproduct of pulling back against a coiled rear hip. It is independent of the feet interacting with the ground.

 

[jryan15]

Overlap...

Opposing motions that create elastic energy.

Example: Shin/knee or body heading forward... while the arm is backswinging.
Example: Stride leg/foot starts descending to the ground... while the arm is heading UP.
Example: Stride foot externally rotating prior to plant... while throwing shoulder is still rotating "open".

Make sense?

Respectfully. These items do not automatically generate overlap. Let's go to any TB tourny, any class. I'll show you countless girls who do one or all of the above, and do not do this:

Overlap requires more than a topside going back hard and a bottom side going forward hard. Overlap is K to reverse K, and it requires the pelvis to shift and force the leg to IR. It doesn't happen with out something special going on under the hood.

 

[jryan15]

Overlap...

Opposing motions that create elastic energy.

Example: Shin/knee or body heading forward... while the arm is backswinging.
Example: Stride leg/foot starts descending to the ground... while the arm is heading UP.
Example: Stride foot externally rotating prior to plant... while throwing shoulder is still rotating "open".

Make sense?

These examples involve front side actions. This dude does not have a front side leg yet he overlaps with the best of them...

 

[jryan15]

I think this is a great conversation and one that we should continue. I really would like to see Rick come back and comment more. The hips and core torque that he describes is IMO one of the biggest areas that is lacking on this site. In other words, it is not spoken about much. In fact, Rick has been one of the only contributors that has brought this up over the years. ***Yes, I am sure that I am leaving something out. The exciting thing for me is to see what the Terrific Trio - Rick, Java, Rich have to say about this. Java, thanks for commenting above^^^ You are a rockstar and we all appreciate that and everything you have given.

You are right on. Rick has been talking hip torque for a long time. He sees it. More and more people see it. But there are not many who have been able to recreate it. Your athlete either just does it, or they don't. Not to get into a this site-that site, but HI has had it for a long time, but it's been impossible to have productive conversations when they always blow up.

I don't like to refer to "hip torque" as overlap. Hip torque is real and I like the term, but IMO it happens because of overlap.

Now that I have that out of the way, I will at least share what I have taken away from all this. I truly believe hip and core torque is the missing link. JAD, made the simple statement above and I can't agree more.
Linear energy (drive mechanics) gets the party started and the better they are the more energy turns into Rotational (hip core torque) energy. This energy pulls the shoulder, arm, fingers, and ball forward. Without it, you are leaving velocity on the table.

Overlap does not require linear energy. Don't get me wrong, given the right conditions, linear moves can lead to overlap, but the secret sauce is in the "right conditions." I overlap in this clip with minimal forward momentum. Yes, I ER my front foot, but that's more of a mental issue of feeling like my front leg was in the way, it played no significant role in the overlap that was generated.

(Don't shred my swing too much, that 34 drop 3 is too big for my old, fat, weak arse.)


I have another clip of me generating overlap without a bat or even swinging, just a scap pull back....but it's not too flattering so I'll keep it on the d/l. PM me if you are truly interested.

Already too long but I would simply encourage you to try it yourself. Try to emphasize opening your hips and then quickly closing them to 45 degrees or so while pitching. Then try to just simply land with them at 45 and muscle the ball with your shoulder/arm. I experienced a big difference and my arm/shoulder did not feel like it was working at all. It was but it was secondary. It was being pulled by my core/hips.

So I took this to 2 different pitchers. 1 is a HS pitcher (9th grade) who learned everything she knows from this site with the exception of using her hips. She immediately and I stress immediately went from 52-53 to 56-58 on 10 pocket radar shots. NO, I don't have video of this but I wouldn't spend the time posting BS as most of you know me by now.

Awesome results!!! That is great. It sounds like you've pushed your pitchers to new limits. With the hard movements, they might be overlapping. They might also be pushing their rear hip (fakie overlap) would need video to know for sure.

Keep experimenting, because we are all interested. I can execute it in swinging and throwing, but it is not natural for me. There is still something missing to make it fully-automatic. The sooner the community truly understands it, the sooner the smart guys will develop systems to produce it. At least that is my hope and the reason for my posts.