Pitchers hips?
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I am glad to see Rick reply on this subject. I would strongly recommend reading everything you can find from Rick Pauly on this subject and do a Google search on him and core torque, hip snap, hip torque, etc. You will find some of his videos that IMO explain it very well. Below are a couple:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYlWyw9IzEQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMEo1Kovgb8
You can then decide if you think the hips and core play a role or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYlWyw9IzEQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMEo1Kovgb8
You can then decide if you think the hips and core play a role or not.
I've been watching the following videos and still feel the opening and closing is directly related to the arms and legs. Hard to explain it, but the extension opens the torso, and I feel my body being closed by pulling against my arms and drag leg. During an overhand throw, I get open with a hop, then push against the ground with the back leg and pull the hips/torso with the stride leg snapping open/forward.
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Great comments Ken, thank you for digging deeper! Personally I stink at pitching so the feels of your real world experience is very valuable.
The opening that you discuss when you stride out, is it different than when someone is incorrectly driving open (ie turn drive foot outside and pivot open)? I bet it feels very different.
When someone drives open by turning their foot out and simply turning their body, their rear hip does not coil and remains in the neutral state. They open from the bottom-up. When you drive out, if it's like Abbott, the rear foot doesn't simply pivot open, your opening is different. I suspect you pull from the topside. Your throwing arm shoulder complex is pulling back and opens you from the top-down and this will coil the rear hip.
Can you maybe describe this differently? Being closed by pulling what against your arms and drag leg? I'm having trouble visualizing this.
Can you elaborate on pulling the hips and specify which hip is pulling against what? These are key observations, and I don't want to misinterpret.
Are you talking crowing hopping open in a way that coils you like this Harper sequence?
Notice Harper's back foot in the last frame. His foot is toed in yet his waist is all the way open (he is actually even passed 90 degrees open). There is massive coil in his rear hip at that position.
In the final frame before he ER's, notice the last pull back of his throwing shoulder, this scap pull back kicks off the rear leg. I want to say triggers but that would imply that his leg is being told to do something. I think his leg is instead released. It is being torqued backward by the hip coil and the final scap pull back changes his pelvis angle ever so slightly (he transistions from K to reverse K). All that load in the rear hip falls off the backside of the femur and that forcefully snaps the rear leg forward. This is hard to describe, but I tried a while back in this video (I'm using a hitting stance, but it is relevant for throwing as well).
The release... Can anyone look at this and think that he is manually IR'ing into release? That arm is ER'd to the max and the IR is just the snapping forward and release of all that negative ER load. Just imagine what it would be like if he let you stand beside him and try to manually ER his arm horizontal to the ground. After 45 degrees it'd start to feel like you were going to rip his arm off, yet in this throw it gets to 90 degrees. Insane. (I do think this is what happens in the pitching IR mechanic.)
So there is a vast cavern of differences between Harper's throw and the everyday ordinary throw. Harper is resisting letting his lower body turn closed. He doesn't just turn closed as he strides, he's darn near at front foot plant before he starts to turn closed. That resistance creates the massive snap forward of the rear leg. This is somewhat described by Rick in the curvilinear rotation video. In the everyday ordinary throw, we do not resist and because we do not resist our hips will simply close as we stride (way before foot plant).
I think if you experiment with resisting closing as long as possible, heck even after front foot plant, keep that rearward coil. When you do finally pull back the arm and ER, your rear leg will snap forward (and so will everything from the leg and up). Also stay palms down as long as possible.
The opening that you discuss when you stride out, is it different than when someone is incorrectly driving open (ie turn drive foot outside and pivot open)? I bet it feels very different.
When someone drives open by turning their foot out and simply turning their body, their rear hip does not coil and remains in the neutral state. They open from the bottom-up. When you drive out, if it's like Abbott, the rear foot doesn't simply pivot open, your opening is different. I suspect you pull from the topside. Your throwing arm shoulder complex is pulling back and opens you from the top-down and this will coil the rear hip.
Can you maybe describe this differently? Being closed by pulling what against your arms and drag leg? I'm having trouble visualizing this.
Can you elaborate on pulling the hips and specify which hip is pulling against what? These are key observations, and I don't want to misinterpret.
Are you talking crowing hopping open in a way that coils you like this Harper sequence?
Notice Harper's back foot in the last frame. His foot is toed in yet his waist is all the way open (he is actually even passed 90 degrees open). There is massive coil in his rear hip at that position.
In the final frame before he ER's, notice the last pull back of his throwing shoulder, this scap pull back kicks off the rear leg. I want to say triggers but that would imply that his leg is being told to do something. I think his leg is instead released. It is being torqued backward by the hip coil and the final scap pull back changes his pelvis angle ever so slightly (he transistions from K to reverse K). All that load in the rear hip falls off the backside of the femur and that forcefully snaps the rear leg forward. This is hard to describe, but I tried a while back in this video (I'm using a hitting stance, but it is relevant for throwing as well).
The release... Can anyone look at this and think that he is manually IR'ing into release? That arm is ER'd to the max and the IR is just the snapping forward and release of all that negative ER load. Just imagine what it would be like if he let you stand beside him and try to manually ER his arm horizontal to the ground. After 45 degrees it'd start to feel like you were going to rip his arm off, yet in this throw it gets to 90 degrees. Insane. (I do think this is what happens in the pitching IR mechanic.)
So there is a vast cavern of differences between Harper's throw and the everyday ordinary throw. Harper is resisting letting his lower body turn closed. He doesn't just turn closed as he strides, he's darn near at front foot plant before he starts to turn closed. That resistance creates the massive snap forward of the rear leg. This is somewhat described by Rick in the curvilinear rotation video. In the everyday ordinary throw, we do not resist and because we do not resist our hips will simply close as we stride (way before foot plant).
I think if you experiment with resisting closing as long as possible, heck even after front foot plant, keep that rearward coil. When you do finally pull back the arm and ER, your rear leg will snap forward (and so will everything from the leg and up). Also stay palms down as long as possible.
I struggle with the technical aspects of muscle groups, medical terms, etc., and base my opinion on seeing, doing and feeling to make sense of things. That said, I'll warn that I can't translate what I've tried and feel into technical terms.
Drive Forward or Drive Open
When driving forward into plant, think about keeping everything driving squarely towards the target, but allowing the body to open. Those who try to get open (often skippies) drive the stride hip, or even the back pocket forward, then pull closed against the extended arms/legs. Skippies use the replant to help close. I believe Osterman demonstrates this well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQz7CKn0SS4 It's easy to see (feel) the allure of this style. I catch myself skipping during BP...
Arms and Legs Open and Close the Torso
I feel the extension of my arms and legs opening my body. I think that's a given. Although I feel like I close as a result of my arms and legs, I thought it would be fun to find a way to test this. I dug up an old Lazy Susan to stand on to see if I could open and close with my arms only. I was actually surprised when it worked and found that if I used Pauly's glove whirl, it was even more effective! I wasn't able to come up with a fun way to test the legs (like a zip line!), but while trying Cat's drive, I believe I felt the dragging toe help me close. Wish I had a way to verbalize this feeling. Otherwise, I definitely feel my thighs adducting to help close.
Overhand Throw/Hitting
I wasn't able to translate your description into what I feel for throwing/hitting. I feel my body coiling and loading, then pushing with the back leg/foot to uncoil and snap the front thigh externally. With throwing, I feel arm/glove whirl help pull/rotate the torso. This gif nails what I feel on transferring energy from the back to front foot:
I see Harper driving forward forcefully into his throw by coiling then uncoiling by driving from the back foot. Try throwing with the stride foot landing at 90-45 degrees. Now try ERing the thigh hard and planting straight. Pretty cool how much more umph you can get into the throw!
Hope some of this made sense.
Ken
Drive Forward or Drive Open
When driving forward into plant, think about keeping everything driving squarely towards the target, but allowing the body to open. Those who try to get open (often skippies) drive the stride hip, or even the back pocket forward, then pull closed against the extended arms/legs. Skippies use the replant to help close. I believe Osterman demonstrates this well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQz7CKn0SS4 It's easy to see (feel) the allure of this style. I catch myself skipping during BP...
Arms and Legs Open and Close the Torso
I feel the extension of my arms and legs opening my body. I think that's a given. Although I feel like I close as a result of my arms and legs, I thought it would be fun to find a way to test this. I dug up an old Lazy Susan to stand on to see if I could open and close with my arms only. I was actually surprised when it worked and found that if I used Pauly's glove whirl, it was even more effective! I wasn't able to come up with a fun way to test the legs (like a zip line!), but while trying Cat's drive, I believe I felt the dragging toe help me close. Wish I had a way to verbalize this feeling. Otherwise, I definitely feel my thighs adducting to help close.
Overhand Throw/Hitting
I wasn't able to translate your description into what I feel for throwing/hitting. I feel my body coiling and loading, then pushing with the back leg/foot to uncoil and snap the front thigh externally. With throwing, I feel arm/glove whirl help pull/rotate the torso. This gif nails what I feel on transferring energy from the back to front foot:
I see Harper driving forward forcefully into his throw by coiling then uncoiling by driving from the back foot. Try throwing with the stride foot landing at 90-45 degrees. Now try ERing the thigh hard and planting straight. Pretty cool how much more umph you can get into the throw!
Hope some of this made sense.
Ken
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Here's my take:
Overlap is body parts moving in opposite directions. In hitting it looks like the hands stretching an imaginary rubber band attached to the stride toe. The band is stretched in two ways: linear in stretch and rotational in coil.
With a pitcher, the most often talked about overlap is the one used by some pitchers as the hand(s) swing back as the body drives/leans forward. The body move forward while the hands are still loading.
Many pitchers use a rolling start with little-to-no overlap as the hips and hands move back at the same time, then forward at the same time. Step-style is an example of this.
Overlap creates more potential energy when sequenced correctly.
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