O'Leary, Cshilt,Wellphyt,FiveFrameSwing, other hitting "experts"

[Wellphyt]

Fantastic. That is much clearer. There are a few others I need clarified if you have the time.

What is internally rotating? The shoulders? The torso?
Rear upper arm (humerus). Similar feel to when you reach back with your throwing hand in the overhand throw motion. If you subscribe to the belief that "what loads, unloads" or, in this case, "what winds, unwinds", then the rear upper arm unwinds from internal rotation to external rotation. Which is what most of us do when we throw overhand.



I assume by "hinges" you mean that the knee flexes (moving the lower leg toward the back of the thigh).

Yes, but the player has to be careful not to over hinge. If a player over hinges they will have too steep of a swing gradient. Doing this is IMO just as bad as lunging.



I take lateral to mean from left to right, or right to left. I don't think this is what you mean. Rear shoulder dips (slightly)?

If you where to stand in place in the batter's box it would be back towards the catcher. Lateral tilt occurs virtually simultaneously when the upper torso turns so you can't see the lateral tilt taking place. It's really just one seamless move, which is how I prefer to teach it. Epstein's Torque Drill is IMO an excellent drill to teach this combination upper torso move. Sometimes I will break out the lateral tilt move if a player isn't understanding. Young players will sometimes get carried away and start bending at the waist too much. IMO the correct move is more in the shoulder complex and not the waist. IOW, you can stand facing a mirror and tilt your shoulders without bending at the waist.


The top hand (forearm) suplinates? Is the bottom hand (forearm) pronating then?
I do not see the front forearm pronating. The only group I'm aware of that teaches active pronation of the lead forearm is HI.com.

Typed to meet the ten character requirement.

 

[Bishop]

Great Post Wellphyt. I'll have to chew on that a while before I can swallow a bite that big. I may have questions once I think I understand it all and contrast against the hitting program our organization teaches. Thank you.

 

[cshilt]

I appreciate your continued patience. I'm still having some problems.

What is internally rotating? The shoulders? The torso?
Rear upper arm (humerus). Similar feel to when you reach back with your throwing hand in the overhand throw motion. If you subscribe to the belief that "what loads, unloads" or, in this case, "what winds, unwinds", then the rear upper arm unwinds from internal rotation to external rotation. Which is what most of us do when we throw overhand.

Sorry, I'm still not getting this description. Isn't internal rotation turning the upper arm inward?

I take lateral to mean from left to right, or right to left. I don't think this is what you mean. Rear shoulder dips (slightly)?

If you where to stand in place in the batter's box it would be back towards the catcher. Lateral tilt occurs virtually simultaneously when the upper torso turns so you can't see the lateral tilt taking place. It's really just one seamless move...

Are you articulating the spine with the tilt? Obviously not to this degree, but here is a picture of lateral flexion...

Spine Articulations

 

[Wellphyt]

I appreciate your continued patience. I'm still having some problems.


Sorry, I'm still not getting this description. Isn't internal rotation turning the upper arm inward?

Yes, internal rotation is turning the upper arm inward.

Do you believe the hands should load by moving straight back towards the catcher? I don't believe they should. Hitters that do this typically bar their front arm, which IMO is bad.

Do you believe the hands should load by the upper torso rotating around the spine back towards the catcher? I don't believe this is a good idea either and it is not what I see good hitters doing.

When I look at clips of MLB hitters head on from the pitcher's view, what I typically see during their hand load is their rear elbow poke out from behind their back. Sort of as if they were pulling back a bow with their back arm or pulling back their hand to throw a punch. IMO this move is accomplished by turning in their rear upper arm (internal rotation). I do it naturally as I believe most hitters do. When performed this way the arms go back as a unit minimizing the risk of the front arm being barred or the upper torso turning away from the pitcher such that the batter is looking out of one eye.


Are you articulating the spine with the tilt? Obviously not to this degree, but here is a picture of lateral flexion...

I think in extreme cases where the hitter is fooled and swinging at a very low pitch outside the strike zone you will see articulation of the spine. However I believe for pitches in the strike zone the majority of the tilt happens at the shoulder complex, with minimal spine articulation. You can tell players who bend their spine to achieve tilt, because during their follow through their back is arched. Ouch!!

Perhaps a better way to describe shoulder tilt is that the back shoulder arcs forward and down, but not backward down and then around.

Ten characters.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I think in extreme cases where the hitter is fooled and swinging at a very low pitch outside the strike zone you will see articulation of the spine. However I believe for pitches in the strike zone the majority of the tilt happens at the shoulder complex, with minimal spine articulation. You can tell players who bend their spine to achieve tilt, because during their follow through their back is arched. Ouch!!

If the shoulders are tilting, the spine is articulating.

In truth, the spine goes through all kinds of contortions, even on pitches up in the strike zone.

 

[cshilt]

6. During the stride the hands load back to armpit height by internal rotation to create stretch.

Here you say that you are striding forward and internally rotating. When internally rotate my humerous my hands are moving towards the midline of my body. I just want to make sure I'm understanding your intentions correctly.

Your bow analogy makes more sense to me. It sounds like transverse extension. Shoulder Articulations

Your description of shoulder tilt is what I had pictured. It was just that lateral word throwing me off.

I'm sorry if this has been too tedious of a process. I'm just trying to understand your terms as best as I can.

 

[cshilt]

Too funny. Chris is up late too.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Too funny. Chris is up late too.

Working on this clip from earlier tonight...

HR to RF.

There's a lot of stuff going on throughout the spine in this clip.

Same for this one...

HR to LCF.

Nice level swings, both of them.

 

[cshilt]

Working on this clip from earlier tonight...

Thanks for those clips. I think they're great examples of using tilt to adjust to pitch location.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

1. Balanced stance with feet slightly further than shoulder width apart. Weight slightly on inside of feet. I use the cue "Sit" to convey my idea of the correct posture. Feet laterally separated approximately 2" with the back foot closer to home plate than the front foot. Feet point towards plate - no duck feet.
2. Hands no higher than the shoulders. Forearms form a triangle when looking down through them.
3. Barrel vertical to 45 degrees. (Style choice)
4. Knocking knuckles of top hand line up between top knuckles and knocking knuckles of bottom hand. Bat held in fingers of top hand and further back in bottom hand.
5. When front foot is lifted to stride (approximately 4" stride), coil against rear leg by screwing rear foot clockwise (RHB) against the ground. Rear leg straightens/firms up as front foot picks up.
6. During the stride the hands load back to armpit height by internal rotation to create stretch.
7. Toe touch with front foot open approximately 45 degrees. The start of separation. Front leg slightly flexed for balance.
8. Front heel drops, initiating the opening of the hips. Back knee hinges.
9. Back elbow slots by external rotation (overhand throw motion). Front elbow gets up off the letters by flexion and internal rotation. This move helps to maximize the separation of the upper and lower torso.
10. Shoulders laterally tilt.
11. Upper torso begins to turn.
12. 9, 10 and 11 happen virtually simultaneously and appear as one seamless move.
13. Back knee begins turning in (no "squishing the bug") as the hips begin to unwind from the coil.
14. The degree of shoulder tilt is dependent on pitch location - less on high pitches; more on low pitches. Front elbow is used as a heads-up-display to fine tune shoulder tilt.
15. Front knee begins to firm/lock as hands come forward. Top hand works "underneath" by supination. Cues such as "scoop sand" or "throw the barrel" can help convey this move.
16. Belly button facing pitcher on pitches middle-half in; not as much on pitches away.
17. Bat-head parallel to ground in beginning phase, but quickly begins working below hands as swing progresses toward contact. Hands palm up -palm down at contact. Bat is on pitch plane at contact
18. Hitter "on" or "behind" axis. (Dependent on pitch location: less on high pitches; more on low pitches.) No lunging.
19. Eyes level and head slightly down to straight ahead. (Not watching the ball hit the bat.)
20. Front knee immediately releases once contact is made to preserve balance.
21. Front foot eventually points at pitcher due to rotational momentum around the hitter's axis and weight goes to the outside of the front foot.
22. Extension. "Power V" out in front of the hitter. Will vary depending on pitch location.
23. Wrists do not roll until well after contact.
24. Arms fully extend through contact.
25. Position of the hands in the follow-through depends on contact location (higher on low pitches; lower on high pitches).

I believe in the following principles regarding the hands:
1. Hand-Pivot-Point
2. Top Hand is the primary power source getting the swing initiated and the front hand helps to guide the power.

I believe the cue coil - stretch - Separate/swing is a good way to help kids create a mental image of a well sequenced swing.

I believe the overhand throw can help kids learn the correct sequence and sync.

If you need me to get more specific than this let me know.

Excellent information and detail. I'll review and I'm sure I will have some questions. For now I would like to better understand the relationship between throwing overhand and swing mechanics?