IR question,...pretty please? :-)

[BoardMember]

I enjoy your views and respect them as always.

I second this........

 

[starsnuffer]

Star, I think you mis-understood my reply. My reply was I DO RESPECT that you handle all your posts with a level of professionalism. I DO enjoy your views and input. I was not being sarcastic, I was being complementary.

I know posts can be taken either way sometimes, my intent was I enjoy our conversations.

Doh, my bad, that's what I get for posting while I'm working. I really appreciate your kind words and feel likewise. It's great that people can still find a place to discuss things civilly, especially on the internet



-W

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Boardmember.

Another crazy question I hope you can elaborate. Ok this video of Cat ( quality is horrible ) her first pitch looks like IR ( maybe ) and then the finish is very similar to DD's screw ( running FB ) where her wrist is up and the forearm angled up. First, what is Cat throwing here? Second, can you walk me through the pitch ( arm/wrist ) all the way even after the ball is released.

I can't slow it down on my iPad to get a good look, maybe you have software that can.

Thanks,
GD

 

[tojo]

Dictionary defintion:
Source: Free Online Dictionary

Pronation- to turn or rotate the hand or foreman so that the palm faces down or back

Supination- to turn or rotate the hand or forearm so that the palm faces up or forward

Suggested viewing for visual explanation of pronation and supination:
Source: Youtube

Pronation and Supination of the forearm

Movement Analysis- explained @ (2 minutes and 27 seconds)2:27 and 2:40 of the video

Anatomical Terms of Movement- 2:39 and 2:47 of the video

After you view these videos, ask yourself if there is no supination when you throw a screwball as well as other pitchs.

 

[BoardMember]

Dictionary defintion:
Source: Free Online Dictionary

Pronation- to turn or rotate the hand or foreman so that the palm faces down or back

Supination- to turn or rotate the hand or forearm so that the palm faces up or forward

Suggested viewing for visual explanation of pronation and supination:
Source: Youtube

Pronation and Supination of the forearm

Movement Analysis- explained @ (2 minutes and 27 seconds)2:27 and 2:40 of the video

Anatomical Terms of Movement- 2:39 and 2:47 of the video

So you are just figuring this out over 3 years AFTER I wrote about it in my I/R thread??? Welcome to the party!

After you view these videos, ask yourself if there is no supination when you throw a screwball as well as other pitchs.

Your attempt here in this post to divert from and correct your previous assertion that EXTERNAL ROTATION is involved in throwing ANY pitches doesn't surprise me..........You've said several times that E/R (external rotation) is used to throw certain pitches........Now you're saying that pronation and supination is what you mean......Thanks for the redo!

However, you are still off track TJ............And here's why.........When you reach the last 1/4 of the arm circle.......Palm to the sky.........You are ALREADY supinated to the maximum degree.........You cannot supinate ANY FURTHER from that position during RELEASE.........And INTERNAL rotation brings the ball from back to front through release..........ALWAYS.........Regardless of the amount of PRONATION that occurs through release..........

I'm going to bring here some parts of my ORIGINAL posts on I/R so you can realize that you are not teaching anyone who read the I/R posts anything........

What Bill IS doing, is attemping to minimize side spin by limiting the amount of internal rotation to the best of his ability. As all high level pitchers do.

That was my point. We TRY. But the fact is WE don't.........

The simple act of "trying" relates to a more "pure" spin......

When we throw a riseball, we acheive slightly more supination (forearm/palm to the sky) on the down swing, keeping our wrist inside the ball longer. The index (control) finger is attempting to cut under and up the front of the ball which delays the internal rotation at the fingers for a moment in time and allows release timing to flow directly at the target with backspin.

"Internal" or "medial" rotation is the act of rotating an external part toward the mid-line of the body.

Internal rotation of the upper arm (humerous):

When this guy pulls the handle across body he is performing "internal" or "medial" rotation of the humerous (upper arm) in the glenohumeral (shoulder) socket.

When he moves the handle back away from the mid-line he is performing "lateral" or "external" rotation of the humerous.

Notice his forearm/wrist are NOT rotating in this clip.

Internal (Medial) Rotation of Upper Arm Example.....

Internal rotation of the forearm/wrist:

When this guy rotates his forearm over to a palm down position, he is "internally rotating" his forearm/wrist. It is also called "pronating". When he rotates his forearm back to palm up, he is "externally rotating", also called "supinating".

Internal Rotation (pronation) of the Forearm/Wrist Example......

Here's the bottom line TJ..........When the 9:00 position behind the pitcher is achieved........The forearm and wrist are ALREADY PRONATED to the maximum degree...........and it does NOT "unsupinate" then REsupinate......EVER!......It INTERNALLY rotates with either more or less pronation.........LESS pronation is used in rise and screw.......More in fastball, drop and roll over drop or drop curve..........But NEVER is there EXTERNAL ROTATION used DURING the release of the ball as you've continually asserted.......Until you changed your movement meanings.........

So no.......I've never asserted E/R in delivery because it simply isn't possible..........And no.......I've never asserted that all pitches use PRONATION coupled with INTERNAL rotation..........A flat curve under the ball remains pronated within the INTERNAL rotation phase of delivery...........A rise and screw can either stay more supinated or become more pronated depending on the delivery styles..........

Now.......When throwing CERTAIN change ups.......I/R and pronation occur very early in the downswing......Killing the velocity created by I/R and/or pronation during the delivery phase..........

This is a perfect example of early I/R; and Pronation achieving the change up mechanics:

 

[Amy in AZ.]

BM, Who is that pitcher? I would like to look at more video of her.

 

[tojo]

So you are just figuring this out over 3 years AFTER I wrote about it in my I/R thread??? Welcome to the party!



Your attempt here in this post to divert from and correct your previous assertion that EXTERNAL ROTATION is involved in throwing ANY pitches doesn't surprise me..........You've said several times that E/R (external rotation) is used to throw certain pitches........Now you're saying that pronation and supination is what you mean......Thanks for the redo!

However, you are still off track TJ............And here's why.........When you reach the last 1/4 of the arm circle.......Palm to the sky.........You are ALREADY supinated to the maximum degree.........You cannot supinate ANY FURTHER from that position during RELEASE.........And INTERNAL rotation brings the ball from back to front through release..........ALWAYS.........Regardless of the amount of PRONATION that occurs through release..........

I'm going to bring here some parts of my ORIGINAL posts on I/R so you can realize that you are not teaching anyone who read the I/R posts anything........





Here's the bottom line TJ..........When the 9:00 position behind the pitcher is achieved........The forearm and wrist are ALREADY PRONATED to the maximum degree...........and it does NOT "unsupinate" then REsupinate......EVER!......It INTERNALLY rotates with either more or less pronation.........LESS pronation is used in rise and screw.......More in fastball, drop and roll over drop or drop curve..........But NEVER is there EXTERNAL ROTATION used DURING the release of the ball as you've continually asserted.......Until you changed your movement meanings.........

So no.......I've never asserted E/R in delivery because it simply isn't possible..........And no.......I've never asserted that all pitches use PRONATION coupled with INTERNAL rotation..........A flat curve under the ball remains pronated within the INTERNAL rotation phase of delivery...........A rise and screw can either stay more supinated or become more pronated depending on the delivery styles..........

Now.......When throwing CERTAIN change ups.......I/R and pronation occur very early in the downswing......Killing the velocity created by I/R and/or pronation during the delivery phase..........

This is a perfect example of early I/R; and Pronation achieving the change up mechanics:

This girl is throwing a nice flip change and she is pronating @ 9:00. I thought we were discussing a screwball and I did use supination as well as ER in my initial post on this thread.

 

[Perfect Circle]

I would like to see where the feet finish...
I think I'm seeing the front foot staying straight, not allowing the hips to open... BM can you include the feet finishing?

 

[tojo]

Free Medical Dictionary defines external rotation "turning outwardly or away from the midline of the body".

 

[BoardMember]

Free Medical Dictionary defines external rotation "turning outwardly or away from the midline of the body".

EXACTLY!.........And I've already asked you to show us an example of a pitcher EXTERNALLY ROTATING the arm during release........Ain't happening........Any more then Supination happens while releasing the ball..........Which it also DOES NOT DO........

Supination may REMAIN more constant which I eluded to in my I/R thred.........But that is a POSITION ALREADY ACHIEVED behind the body.........The arm is NOT SUPINATING OR EXTERNALLY ROTATING during the release..........

Pitchers DO NOT Externally Rotate Or Supinate during the release phase. Why don't you get that?

Lets move on OK........You obviously don't get it..........No big deal.........