IR--one more time

[Steve Huff]

There seems to be two general variations on throwing the rise. In one the fingers are used more, the wrist is straighter and the palm faces toward 3rd. You have to have good sizes fingers to throw a rise this way, it's what you see more in the men's game. The other way uses a cupped wrist and the palm/fingers are slide under the ball, this is more commonly seen in the women's game. The first way usually produces better backspin, the second way often generates a 'tipped' bulletspin type of rise. At least this is how it appears to me.

IR as it is used here describes the action of the hand/upper forearm as it rotates from facing out to facing in. It seems to me that the dispute here revolves around where in this mechanical action the ball is released. There is no doubt that Finch and Pauley both go from open to closed, the question is 'where in this process is the ball released?'

I agree with a lot you say here. And it is a big reason why girls with the smallest hands find it an insurmountable task to throw a rise. I myself find it difficult to teach girls with small hands, and what you say it the absolute truth. The hand cupping the ball causes the wrist to twist under the ball, and toward the center of the body, resulting in some, hopefully not complete, bullet-spin. But somehow there is something in Pauley and Escobedo's release that allows a pretty good rotation. I would not however, judge Pauly's riseball as one of the best. And Escobedo's is rather inconsistent. I wonder why? All I can say is, I couldn't teach it.

 

[dbias]

There seems to be two general variations on throwing the rise. In one the fingers are used more, the wrist is straighter and the palm faces toward 3rd. You have to have good sizes fingers to throw a rise this way, it's what you see more in the men's game. The other way uses a cupped wrist and the palm/fingers are slide under the ball, this is more commonly seen in the women's game. The first way usually produces better backspin, the second way often generates a 'tipped' bulletspin type of rise. At least this is how it appears to me.



IR as it is used here describes the action of the hand/upper forearm as it rotates from facing out to facing in. It seems to me that the dispute here revolves around where in this mechanical action the ball is released. There is no doubt that Finch and Pauley both go from open to closed, the question is 'where in this process is the ball released?'

On DD's rise she describes thinking of pointing her thumb toward third and from 9 to 6 she pushes down on the seam her thumb is on and pushes up on the seam her index fingernail is dug into with emphasis on "thumb going down and index going up...like turning a doorknob" with the finish emphasizing pointing her index finger into her left side of her neck (hand is shaped like a gun at this point)
So as to IR it seems that she is going from almost palm up thumb toward third at release to palm down thumb pointing toward first.... isnt that 180?

 

[Steve Huff]

two of the more prominent pcs in my area seemded to be a bit behind the times, they were working with some of my players and i went to them to discuss ir and took a copy of the ir post on this site, and my lap top to look at some video, both have been instructing for over 25 years, one coach said it was too complicated, wasnt interested in the model pitching videos and said video prooved nothing, had been doing it for to many years to learn anything new. The other pc was interested and watched the videos that are posted on here and some of the others i own, for him the videos clearly proved to him he needed to add more ir into his teaching and he started reverse chaining it into his students, he was open minded and wanted to keep learning and improving his techniques, and realized the slo-mo video is a real teaching tool. A picture is worth a 1000 words, and video is a priceless tool to teach with and learn from.

Good! But take note! I believe in IR. It is presented by boardmember that I don't. That is hogwash! I do. I just don't believe in it as much as he does. What I mean is, I don't like the palm forward at 12:00, palm up at 09:00 pitching form. That initiates a 180 degree forearm rotation into release. Then my contention is just what you see in the Pauly video throwing a rise-ball. Pauly has big hands, so Armwhips point about cupping the ball doesn't apply. Most girls of average height and above, 5'5" or so don't need to cup the ball. They may not be able to throw with a curled finger, a finger-nail grip, etc. They can pitch with a more flat or straight finger if marginal. But Pauly cups the ball in her release perhaps because of the extent of her IR. As I have said many times, the palm up at 09:00 is essential to throwing a curve-ball. But the elbow is bent more coming into the hip, and even starts to turn. So a photo of a pitcher with palm up proves nothing. In fact all photos prove nothing. If photos or videos were a fact, then hello-elbow could be proven as viable. However, it could be proven to me with facts, not video or photos. If you ask an intelligent question, and I get a cherry picked response, then it isn't a response. A response is directed at the question!

1) Is 180 degree IR safer or less safe than 90 degree IR?

2) So I repeat! I am not a believer that the 180 degree IR enhances spins. Prove it to me!

3) And, does 180 degree IR into release enhance speed. I believe IR enhances arm whip. I believe that that arm whip increases speed much more than IR. Do I believe IR can increase arm speed? Yes, to some degree. I believe that arm whip is a bigger factor. And I believe IR enhances arm whip. So yes! Do I believe that it is significant? Not as much as arm whip is a factor. Now, on top of that, how much does 180 degree IR, from palm up to palm forward at release, improve velocity over palm facing out, 90 degree IR at release. This is physics, and no one has addressed it. No one has addressed either of my 3 questions, EVER!

 

[Steve Huff]

On DD's rise she describes thinking of pointing her thumb toward third and from 9 to 6 she pushes down on the seam her thumb is on and pushes up on the seam her index fingernail is dug into with emphasis on "thumb going down and index going up...like turning a doorknob" with the finish emphasizing pointing her index finger into her left side of her neck (hand is shaped like a gun at this point)

This is good! I might point out that just turning the wrist will not add enough spin to maximize a pitcher's potential. Turn the knob with the fingers also. But that might be what she is already doing. And the straighter she can keep her arm/wrist and palm, the better her spin will be (12-6).

 

[Steve Huff]

Thumb on top of the ball means??? Koert is throwing a rise ball in 1 image and a drop ball in the other.

I don't see anything unusual about his grips or hand positions. Michele Smith is a big curve-ball pitcher, and as I have said umpteen million times, you have to have palm up, and a bent elbow to throw a "cupped" style curve-ball. So her photo doesn't mean anything. Now look at Harrigan. What kind of stress do you think she has on her shoulder? More importantly what kind of stress Harrigan is having on her inside of the elbow; the ulnar collateral ligament. I tore mine and had no insurance and quite softball at 39. The part of the elbow closest to us in her photo is where the ligament is. Standing, it is closest to the body on the inside. it holds and stabilizes the ulnar bone to the humerus. When injured, it is what is known as Tommy John surgery. Just looking at these two photos, which elbow, Michele Smith's, or Lori Harrigan's has more stress on it? Note that Lori's palm is facing up to the sky, palm up. Michele's is at about 45 degrees. Both elbows are bent. Both will get whip. Lori is set up for more IR.

This is my whole contention. Prove to me without photos that Lori's approach is safer, provides more velocity, or better spins!

I guess that is three questions, not two!

 

[BoardMember]

1) Is 180 degree IR safer or less safe than 90 degree IR

The fact is that it is NOT less safe........And the fact that you don't teach it doesn't prove that fact wrong........The fact that I do, and have for 25 years, and have never had an injury because of it, is a big enough case study for me........AND that fact is backed up by the fact that probably 80% of the best in the world use it, as PROVEN HERE over and over again ON FILM........

If you have a case study that disproves why 80% of the best pitchers in the world use it and would be better off NOT using it.........Feel free to present it........

2) So I repeat! I am not a believer that the 180 degree IR enhances spins. Prove it to me!

RevFire is proof enough for me.........And I've asked everyone here to perform their own tests to verify.........If you have proof that it doesn't........Feel free to present it...........Until then.......I'll go with the RevFire results........

3) And, does 180 degree IR into release enhance speed. I believe IR enhances arm whip. I believe that that arm whip increases speed much more than IR. Do I believe IR can increase arm speed? Yes, to some degree. I believe that arm whip is a bigger factor. And I believe IR enhances arm whip. So yes! Do I believe that it is significant? Not as much as arm whip is a factor. Now, on top of that, how much does 180 degree IR, from palm up to palm forward at release, improve velocity over palm facing out, 90 degree IR at release. This is physics, and no one has addressed it. No one has addressed either of my 3 questions, EVER!

The above paragraph is pure rhetoric..........Rather then asking for an explaination of the physics of angular acceleration that involve intricate equations involving torque force, tangential and centripetal acceleration and force coupling over time (especially in the last quadrant of the arm circle) and the like..........Why not just let Ueno be your guide as to whether 180 degrees of I/R torque produces more velocity then 90 degrees.........How many of your female students throw 70mph??

Or better yet........Just keep saying "prove it"..........Rather then "disproving it" yourself.........

That way every time you repeat yourself I can just keep posting video's like this one of those pitchers who you claim use only 90 degrees of I/R, just to show that the truth is more important then anyone's ego.......

So she rotates her forearm/hand only 90 degrees, none on some pitches like a riseball, to get to the neutral forearm position (palm forward).

All I can say is "90 degrees of I/R my rear"...........

It's time for a Mea Culpa buddy..........

Oh and since "proof" is important to you, if you have video of Finch's riseball showing ZERO degrees of I/R (as you state clearly above) feel free to present me your evidence.......Until then, I'll rely on my video of her riseball that looks similar to Pauley's 180 degree I/R rise.......

 

[Screwball]

Most of us cock our wrist out from the thigh. (Cupped to me and other coaches I know means fingers towards the body.) My students have great wrist flexibility that they use when throwing the pitch the way I described. No way could I teach or do it straight wrist down, palm out towards third.

The tucked or curled index finger 'pushes' the ball out, too.

I have Joyce's explanation which I will reread when I get a chance.

And I find IR too complicated for the small part of the motion being described and basically a non-teach that happens with other simpler cues. Can't talk that much in lessons. Only half hour. Videos of others are nice for coaches to learn from but they don't teach the kid feel and body awareness. Bubba Watson is the example.

 

[Steve Huff]

All I can say is "90 degrees of I/R my rear"...........

Well this is disturbing to me. When you look at your video she is palm out, to palm forward. That is 90 degrees. This is 90 degree IR into release, which I don't question. In fact I teach it. 80% of the world isn't Christian. I don't think I am going to convert! I can't say your "faith" is wrong, I am just not comfortable with it. I can't say you are right!

Most of your "proof" is a non-sequitur. It doesn't prove anything, and it is full of words which in context have no meaning. I can say that there have been epoch moments where your salacious diatribe has simply served to exacerbate my angst, dampening my enthusiasm for any of your future ulterior machinations, please be more erudite! Ahh, what? It is a real sentence of BS. Big words and ambiguous terminology don't impress me.

I asked: And, does 180 degree IR into release enhance speed. I believe IR enhances arm whip. I believe that that arm whip increases speed much more than IR. Do I believe IR can increase arm speed? Yes, to some degree. I believe that arm whip is a bigger factor. And I believe IR enhances arm whip. So yes! Do I believe that it is significant? Not as much as arm whip is a factor. Now, on top of that, how much does 180 degree IR, from palm up to palm forward at release, improve velocity over palm facing out, 90 degree IR at release. This is physics, and no one has addressed it. No one has addressed either of my 3 questions, EVER!

The above paragraph is pure rhetoric..........Rather then asking for an explaination of the physics of angular acceleration that involve intricate equations involving torque force, tangential and centripetal acceleration and force coupling over time (especially in the last quadrant of the arm circle) and the like..........Why not just let Ueno be your guide as to whether 180 degrees of I/R torque produces more velocity then 90 degrees.........How many of your female students throw 70mph??

"Why not just let Ueno be your guide as to whether 180 degrees of I/R torque produced more velocity than 90 degrees"
Well why not let Jenny Finch as demonstrated in this particular video, where she was trying to throw as hard as she could to break the plexiglass, be my guide as to whether 90 degrees of I/R produces just as much torque as 180 degrees? Why didn't she use full I/R in her circle? I believe in I/R. I just think it facilitates arm whip! Specifically I believe I/R accelerates the 1st and 2nd fingers into the wrist snap. Does it add speed? I think so! How much? I don't know. Does it add more with 180 degree I/R than 90 degree? I don't know.

Ok show me the formula? And to be scientific, show me two formulas; one for Ueno's IR and one for Finch's IR shown in the video above to demonstrate how much Finch is sacrificing with her IR reduction. In fact, I have no student that throws 70mph. Show me yours with you on video! If you can't, then your question to me is just grandstanding.

I am going to try to get Dr. Sherry Werner involved in this. I don't know her, but this may interest her. I want to point out to you as long as you civil, I don't mind being questioned and doubted. So I appreciate that! The thread can keep going.

 

[David B]

I would appreciate some help with my understanding the IR mechanism. I am having trouble understanding the extent to which pronation/rotation of the lower arm contributes to the velocity of the pitch. In looking at the Finch video above, as well as the Ueno and Pauly slo-mos, what I think I am seeing is the entire arm (upper and lower) internally rotating as a unit - that is, the relationship between the front of the bicep and the wrist/palm appears to be fairly constant until after release.

The rotation of the upper arm is easy for me to see. But forearm does not actually appear to rotate independently at the elbow...at least until the ball is gone. Do I have this right?

 

[Alan Snedeker]

I would appreciate some help with my understanding the IR mechanism. I am having trouble understanding the extent to which pronation/rotation of the lower arm contributes to the velocity of the pitch. In looking at the Finch video above, as well as the Ueno and Pauly slo-mos, what I think I am seeing is the entire arm (upper and lower) internally rotating as a unit - that is, the relationship between the front of the bicep and the wrist/palm appears to be fairly constant until after release.

The rotation of the upper arm is easy for me to see. But forearm does not actually appear to rotate independently at the elbow...at least until the ball is gone. Do I have this right?

I agree David. It seems to me like Board Member and Steve are comparing apples to oranges in there arguments.
To me when Steve talks IR he only means from elbow down or Pronation, but when Board Member talks it seems like he is talking total IR or from the shoulder down (Medial + Pronation).

To me in the Jennie Finch clip she has no more than 90 degrees of pronation before the ball is released. Most of her rotation is medial. I agree with BM though that her palm is up at 9:00 and overall internal rotation is 180 degrees.

I'm teaching my DD more of a palm up at 9:00 because I think it is easier to teach and understand than trying to lets say keep it open to 3rd base or wipe the wall. I think there is some added velocity with the pronation from the palm up at 9:00. I don't think we would every get any scientific proof as to which is safer in my DD pitching life span.