Houston Astros and the limits of sign stealing

[Gambler Bob]

There was a kid at 14U doing that to me. I asked her to stop. she snickered at me. So, I changed the indicator, gave a blunt sign with the old indicator and the mandatory swing with the new indicator. She got the bejesus scared out of her.

Very nice. Was Snoop Dog one of the coaches on your team? Never heard of the blunt sign before.

 

[bmakj]

so... the overwhelming stance on the issue here is:
a little rudimentary (analog) cheating is ok, but sophisticated (digital) cheating is not?

non digitial video devices would be just as bush league. eyes/ears/brain OK. levels the playing field

 

[Hawk_]

Because of years and years of playing and now coaching, usually by the second inning I have all of the coaches signs/signals down or close to it. Most coaches either have very basic signs or have tendencies when they call out signals. I have not taken advantage of this yet (12u) because I want the girls to play on both sides. If I crash all my girls early because I know a bunt is coming, all it does is keeps them unprepared for other attacks.
So just cause you can doesn't mean you should.

 

[Rick M]

I posted this on the last thread about the Astros hubub. In 2017, they hit marginally better on the road, despite engaging in some elaborate scheme at their home field:



Knowing what pitch is coming could be a big advantage, IF there was enough time to make an adjustment and if the pitcher can actually hit the spot that's called. But pitchers can't always hit their spots. That why we have walks. And wild pitches.

Furthermore, the best pitches are unpredictable. They move and change velocity differently from pitch to pitch. As sluggers is fond of pointing out, everyone knew Mariano Rivera was coming with his cut fastball. Didn't mean you could hit it.

Now, there can be a big advantage if you can pick an offensive sign -- knowing that the other team is going to bunt or steal or hit-and-run. But that's the third base coach giving signs that everyone can see -- no need for technology to get involved there. I like the idea that the girls at any level are watching the coaches and players for signs that there's a play on.

 

[ANNASDAD]

I'm all for stealing signs.......the old fashioned way, and I'm pretty good at it. Cameras and electronic devices, NO WAY! And honestly with the teams that I've picked their calls, they may get relayed a third of the time, just depends on the team and the situation. The kid still has to hit the pitch even if they know whats coming.

 

[Top_Notch]

I took a picture of my daughter with another opposing player after a game once. I think it was around 12U. The opposing player was from the best team in the state (and their org has won PGF championships). The opposing player happened to be wearing her wrist band, and if I enlarged the picture their signs became very obvious. My daughters coaches wanted no part of it, but they did continue to try to decipher the codes by themselves. I will say, daughter's first travel ball coach held himself to a high standard. Based on what I see other coaches do nowadays, I certainly miss him for that.

 

[sluggers]

@sluggers, yeah mine wouldn’t front you out about it for sure. I’ll add that if she shares it with other players, I’m unaware. Definitely not an “I’m so smart” deal.

You really don’t think players should do this? I’m not being snarky, I’m curious why. This doesn’t perk up my “unethical” radar at all. Seems like part of the bigger game. Am I wrong about that?

At 16U and after, anything goes.

I don't know about younger kids. I worry about their safety. I actually feel bad about what I did....I let my competitiveness get away from me. I should have just changed the indicator every inning.

On the one hand, it is great for kids to learn the game. On the other hand, do they really understand that there is gamesmanship the other way as well? Are they fully aware of the consequences for making a mistake? Can they react fast enough if they make a mistake?

 

[ANNASDAD]

so... the overwhelming stance on the issue here is:
a little rudimentary (analog) cheating is ok, but sophisticated (digital) cheating is not?

Yep, sounds about right.

 

[ANNASDAD]

I actually feel bad about what I did....I let my competitiveness get away from me.

I used to feel this way about calling pitches in 12 & 14U. Just let me see a girls first AB, or see two or three swings in the on-deck circle and I had her! Almost felt like I was cheating, especially if my DD or the other pitchers were really on!

I know it's just a part of the game, but my age and experience in this situation just wasn't fair........it was fun, just not fair.

 

[Westwind]

On the one hand, it is great for kids to learn the game. On the other hand, do they really understand that there is gamesmanship the other way as well? Are they fully aware of the consequences for making a mistake? Can they react fast enough if they make a mistake?

I can buy that. And she has played against really good hitters at 16s for three years now so you know something could happen over there. DD has mentioned too that when she plays third she hates it when a pitcher misses spots. I think you do everything you can to not get balls hit down your throat there, including not going out of your way to irritate the third base coach.

She might give you a completely different answer about all this, I’m just repeating what she has said in passing. Added to the fact she’s way smarter than me lol!