Hit or error?

[Shiloh]

From the 2022-2023 NCAA softball rule book as an example.

“14.21 No Error Is Charged
No error is charged to a fielder in the following situations:
…

14.21.8 When a fly ball is misjudged and the fielder cannot recover in time to make the play.”

Score it as a double.


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100%.

Back in the pencil and paper days, I would have written M8 to indicate CF needed work on that type of play during the next practice.

In GC, I send a color comment to the fans, something like "High fly ball, fielder lost it in the sun" to remind myself of the play.

 

[Nimrod]

I've totally decided already. As far as I'm concerned, it's an error, whether physical or mental is irrelevant. The CF ran in after the inning and went right up to my daughter and said, "That was my mistake. That one's on me, not you. I should've had that ball."

The problem is scorekeeping is so subjective. The example I posted above was from a MLB game in which the official scorer ruled a ball that dropped in as an error to protect a no-hitter. He ruled the player should've made the play easily. In the end, a clean single happened with two outs in the ninth, so it was rendered moot.

With due respect, the problem is that you believe scorekeeping is more subjective than it is. It's not the scorekeeper's job to judge whether a player should have been in position to make a play (with rare exceptions). In the MLB game you cited, the player was in position. So while I didn't love the ruling on that play, it was different, so can't be used as evidence.

There have been 12 posters answer your question, and it's 12-for-12 -- double. I believe that you're trying to be a fair scorekeeper, but you're not an accurate one, IMO. You're giving yourself too much license to judge the quality of the game. Main job is to keep score, not exact justice. Scoring rules are designed to eliminate the need for scorekeeper opinion as much as possible.

 

[CrazyNani]

My DD pitches too, so I know it’s brutal, but that’s a double. It’s a play that should be made. If it happens often, you might need a new CF, but it’s a hit. Fielder misjudged the ball. From the NCAA softball scoring rules. Scored a hit:

14.3.4 When a fly ball is misjudged and the fielder does not recover in time to gain good position.

So then, what if CF recovers in time, gets to the ball and it hits the mitt and falls to the ground? We can't rule an error for misjudging it to begin with but that same mis-judgment, causes her to reach it late and then bobble. Is that now an error?

 

[osagedr]

Actually, I penalized my own daughter for a hit she had in her next at bat. She hit a sinking liner to center that was a clean single, but the CF misplayed the bounce into a double. I scored it as a single with an advance on the error. She still got the hit, but not the XBH.

Oddly enough, the other team scored it as a double for my daughter.

No, you didn't really "penalize" her as her batting average was not affected. You are trying to rationalize the fact that as a pitcher your DD got stuck with a hit that wasn't her fault that you really want to be an error. But it wasn't. FWIW I did GC for a DD pitcher's team and frequently did the exact same thing before I knew what proper scoring was.

 

[Shiloh]

No, you didn't really "penalize" her as her batting average was not affected. You are trying to rationalize the fact that as a pitcher your DD got stuck with a hit that wasn't her fault that you really want to be an error. But it wasn't. FWIW I did GC for a DD pitcher's team and frequently did the exact same thing before I knew what proper scoring was.

How did you learn proper scoring?

Also, BA vs OBS, which do you think is a better metric? Just curious.

Thanks.

 

[_MIA_]

I've totally decided already. As far as I'm concerned, it's an error, whether physical or mental is irrelevant. The CF ran in after the inning and went right up to my daughter and said, "That was my mistake. That one's on me, not you. I should've had that ball."

The problem is scorekeeping is so subjective. The example I posted above was from a MLB game in which the official scorer ruled a ball that dropped in as an error to protect a no-hitter. He ruled the player should've made the play easily. In the end, a clean single happened with two outs in the ninth, so it was rendered moot.

MLB scorers routinely adjust their scoring to benefit the home team..that has been around as long as the game has been around. So, in other words, you are in good company

 

[marriard]

Double.

Always has been, always will be. In all the scoring guides for softball and baseball. You can argue all you want, but it is a double.

Over the years the outfield has saved my DD pitcher as often as they have missed one... it evens out over time.

 

[nightskiier]

So then, what if CF recovers in time, gets to the ball and it hits the mitt and falls to the ground? We can't rule an error for misjudging it to begin with but that same mis-judgment, causes her to reach it late and then bobble. Is that now an error?

Good question - in this specific situation, I'd score an error.

I'll use the 2022-2023 NCAA rulebook with my reasoning.

1. The batter makes contact, fly ball to CF, CF misjudges ball - at this point, this is a base hit
   • "14.2.5 When a fly ball is misjudged and the fielder does not recover in time to gain good position." in Section 14.2 Base Hits
   • This complements “14.21.8 When a fly ball is misjudged and the fielder cannot recover in time to make the play." in Section 14.21 No Error is Charged
2. CF now recovers from the initial misjudgment and now is in a position to catch the fly ball with ordinary effort - the key thing here is the recovery allows a catch with an ordinary effort which negates the rules cited above
3. CF attempts to catch and the ball hits the glove and allows the batter-runner to reach first

• “14.20.1 An error is charged against any fielder for each misplay (that is, fielding, wild throws, missed catches on good throws) that prolongs the life of a batter (causes one or more pitches to be thrown) or a base runner or permits a base runner to advance.”

The ordinary effort is critical - If CF is still sprinting for the catch and needs to do it at high speed and the ball drops - I would not score an error under this rule:

• No Error is Charged - “14.21.9 When a fielder drops a ball after running a considerable distance or if they fail in their attempt to catch the ball while running at a high rate of speed.”

I hope this makes sense.

As I read through this thread - there is a theme to score errors to resolve judgment calls on the field. This is also addressed in the rules: “When in doubt, scoring should always award base hits instead of charging errors.”

 

[LEsoftballdad]

No, you didn't really "penalize" her as her batting average was not affected. You are trying to rationalize the fact that as a pitcher your DD got stuck with a hit that wasn't her fault that you really want to be an error. But it wasn't. FWIW I did GC for a DD pitcher's team and frequently did the exact same thing before I knew what proper scoring was.

How do you figure she didn't get penalized? Sure, her average stays the same, but every other advance metric took a loss. Slugging percentage, OPS, etc...

 

[LEsoftballdad]

With due respect, the problem is that you believe scorekeeping is more subjective than it is. It's not the scorekeeper's job to judge whether a player should have been in position to make a play (with rare exceptions). In the MLB game you cited, the player was in position. So while I didn't love the ruling on that play, it was different, so can't be used as evidence.

There have been 12 posters answer your question, and it's 12-for-12 -- double. I believe that you're trying to be a fair scorekeeper, but you're not an accurate one, IMO. You're giving yourself too much license to judge the quality of the game. Main job is to keep score, not exact justice. Scoring rules are designed to eliminate the need for scorekeeper opinion as much as possible.

It's completely subjective, and to think otherwise is kidding yourself. While I agree there are certain rules that apply to scoring a hit or an error, to think what's declared an error isn't up to the personal judgement of the scorekeeper is wrong.

Last night's FSU/Gators game had a ball hit to 2B by an FSU player. The 2B booted the ball. No hard effort to get to the ball, no weird bounce. She missed it. She eventually came around to score, so Hightower got charged with an earned run. Both announcers said it "has to be an error," and were shocked when it was called a hit. By every letter of the rules you seem to follow, it was an error, but the scorekeeper used his/her judgement and decided it was a hit. You can watch almost any MLB game and question the scorekeeper's call on a hit or error.

In the grand scheme of things, the outcome of the game doesn't change. But, there's no reason a pitcher should be penalized because the fielder made a huge mental mistake.

Maybe the rules need to be adjusted...