Gamemanship or Cheating?

[Coach Foster]

Many moons ago when I played baseball in college catchers called their own game (does that happen anywhere nowadays outside of professional baseball?) so the only signs we would try and get would be bunt,steal, hit and run etc. We never had guys on second try and decipher catchers pitch calling but it is certainly
done.

Our catcher calls all our games, HS varsity level. We talk between innings about what she's seeing with hitters and which pitches are most effective. She's young, learning and is really starting to call a good game.

The story above was from quite a few years ago, when wristbands were just starting to be "the thing". We use them now for offense, but not defense.

 

[_MIA_]

Our catcher calls all our games, HS varsity level. We talk between innings about what she's seeing with hitters and which pitches are most effective. She's young, learning and is really starting to call a good game.

The story above was from quite a few years ago, when wristbands were just starting to be "the thing". We use them now for offense, but not defense.

I don't understand the wristband thing. Hell my DDs 10U team has it for offense!! Kind of silly at that age if you ask me but what do I know. Can you explain to me why professional baseball doesn't need to do it but everybody else thinks it is necessary? Not a knock, generally curious about the reasoning. It cannot be that "touch signs" are too difficult as I had some kids on my HS and Legion teams who could barely count to 100 and they did ok

 

[coach james]

M-F is about teaching them the skills to play. The other days are about having them put those skills to use.

Because there is really no way to simulate what other teams are doing at a practice. Having them trying to pick signals keeps them involved in the game mentally. It makes them smarter ball players. It helps them anticipate better.

I did it with a 1st year 12U team last year. I would also have the pitchers and catchers who were not in the game next to me when calling pitches. I would ask them what they wanted to throw and why. I tried to get them to think 2+ pitches ahead.

Thank you... bullseye!
In the classroom we study all week and prepare so that on test day we can execute that preparation. How is this different than preparing for a game. Part of that game plan is looking for what they'll give us. Things like picking a pitchers grip, throwing outside on a batter who is too far off the plate, softly poking one over the infield when the outfields are really deep, moving to either the front of the box for drop ball pitchers and getting deep in the box when facing a riseballer.... My point is to take what they give you, and try to give them nothing. We teach them to look for these things independently to grow and become a smarter player
At the end of the day, the bottom line of all sports is to try to win...period. If all you care about is development and to hell with the win/loss column. Good luck keeping that team together. There needs to be a balance of development and winning.

And Sluggers your post seems really argumentative and insulting. Your logic of asking "your C cant throw a stealer out?, your 3B can't cover bunts?"... of course they can, but in that same line of questioning, lets ask why does a player call out fly balls (very loudly and repeatedly) Do the other players not have eyes to see she has it? (scarcasm color is red!)
My point is to help them help each other and themselves!

 

[Coach Foster]

I don't understand the wristband thing. Hell my DDs 10U team has it for offense!! Kind of silly at that age if you ask me but what do I know. Can you explain to me why professional baseball doesn't need to do it but everybody else thinks it is necessary? Not a knock, generally curious about the reasoning. It cannot be that "touch signs" are too difficult as I had some kids on my HS and Legion teams who could barely count to 100 and they did ok

Sure, I don't take it as a knock, it's just preference.

For us, we use them because they are basically fool proof. It's easier for our girls to get a 3 number sequence, look down for maybe 2 seconds, at most, and know what to do. I started using wristbands somewhere around 2008, I have seen a huge decrease in missed signs. The number of times I get the "oh crap, I dont know what that means" stare is almost zero compared to when I used traditional signs. And honestly, I don't have to spend hardly any time teaching signs. We pass them out, and spend maybe 5-10 minutes of one practice going over them, and everyone knows how to read them.

Like I said, it's just preference. Some feel traditional signs are best, awesome, use them. I wouldn't try to persuade anyone to not use them. My girls just like wristbands better.

 

[_MIA_]

Sure, I don't take it as a knock, it's just preference.

For us, we use them because they are basically fool proof. It's easier for our girls to get a 3 number sequence, look down for maybe 2 seconds, at most, and know what to do. I started using wristbands somewhere around 2008, I have seen a huge decrease in missed signs. The number of times I get the "oh crap, I dont know what that means" stare is almost zero compared to when I used traditional signs. And honestly, I don't have to spend hardly any time teaching signs. We pass them out, and spend maybe 5-10 minutes of one practice going over them, and everyone knows how to read them.

Like I said, it's just preference. Some feel traditional signs are best, awesome, use them. I wouldn't try to persuade anyone to not use them. My girls just like wristbands better.

Gotcha, thanks!!

 

[Ken Krause]

Well, first of all I don't see why your HC was annoyed that you were pointing this stuff out. Even if he thinks it's Bush league he should want to be aware of it so some "Bush league" opposing coach doesn't use the information against him. No different than telling him his 3B is playing too far back and is vulnerable to the bunt. I would think he'd want to know about any obvious flaws or giveaways so he could correct them.

Now as for the issue of stealing signs and conveying information itself, I don't think it's Bush league, at least at the older levels. It's just being smart. If you can pick a grip on a pitcher's changeup, that's a good advantage to have. Just like picking up that she throws it on an 0-2 count every time. Maybe if more coaches were picking pitch calls coming from the dugout those coaches would be forced to teach their catchers how to call a game.

Same with picking signs. A lot easier to play the sacrifice bunt and get the lead runner if you know it's coming, whether that's through picking the sign or knowing the opposing coach slavishly bunts with a runner on first. If you don't want your signs picked do something to prevent it from happening.

I was never any good at picking pitches so after a while I quit trying. And even when I did do it, my players didn't like getting the verbals as they were getting ready to hit so there was that too. For bunts I tended to teach my players to recognize the early warning signs, such as a hitter who suddenly moves to the front of the box before a pitch. For steals, I basically taught my catchers to assume there was a steal happening on every pitch and plan accordingly.

As an opposing coach I will admit I would get annoyed if someone on the other team was being obvious about it. Like a 3rd baseman staring directly at me or a coach calling out "bunt" or "steal" from the dugout. But as has been said, you simply adjust and use that against them. I never thought it was Bush league, though. For me there was a difference in not liking something and it being wrong.

 

[Cannonball]

First, I've tried to cut down on posting since I seem to have offended so many. I'll weigh in on this and let the chips fall where they may.

Stealing signs is a part of the game whether you like it or not. Personally, I don't like it given the age group. I actually believe it inhibits development when players aren't allowed to play the game without adult intervention in areas such as telling/signaling where a pitch is going to be or what pitch it is. That is my opinion. In another sense, I love it when other teams do this. I have a plan for it and use it against them. I teach my catcher to set up in a neutral position and to slide out or in (slide out not a good descriptor) right before the pitch. I teach my pitcher to throw to areas and not always to a mit. I have signals for my catch which can mean things like ignore all signals I give and call the pitcher's best pitch, signals that are absolutely fake after signaling to the catcher via a sign that they are now calling the game, signals that mean no matter what I do, call the same pitch you just called again ... I especially like doing this in counts where we will fake call either the fastball or change and call the opposite. I love seeing the opposing coach look dumb. My players get a huge kick out of it. I guess what I am actually saying is that coach your kids up and have a plan for coaches and players who steal signs and then use their tactics against them.

Edited to add:

I forgot to mention, when doing the above, we make sure that the coach can see all of the signs. The are useless and we have another method that we use to let the pitcher and defense know what the pitch is. It is in front of everyone's nose and they never catch on to it. One last thing, I once talked to a MLB catcher who told me to look at the facemask and use the holes of the facemask to let the pitcher know which number they put down in sequence is the pitch they want. For example, if the catcher puts their fingers in the right eye hole, it is the first signal down. If in the chin area, it is the second sign down and so on. In that way, and if they flash multiple numbers, the opponent can't figure out what the pitch is.

 

[FP26]

My point is to help them help each other and themselves!

To me this ^^^ is the bottom line. One of my goals as a coach is to develop smarter (softball IQ) players. If your stance is to teach your players how to notice these things and take advantage of them on their own, I am 100% with you. I believe the difference is in regards to my level of involvement. I will point certain things out to my players, but I prefer that they are capable of thinking for themselves. I am an extremely competitive person. I absolutely hate to lose, at anything. But when I am coaching, I do not take credit for wins. The players are playing the game. If they win, the credit goes completely to them. It is their accomplishment, not my accomplishment.

 

[Rocketech1]

IMO, I have no problem with PLAYERS stealing signs and relaying that information to their teammates, I just don't like it when the adult coaches do it during play, especially at the younger levels. For example, at 10U ASA nationals our first base coach would tell the batter if the catcher was set-up inside or outside by saying numbers or names based on location, something like "let's go #23" if the pitch was going to be outside, and "You got this one Sally" if it was an inside pitch. Again my opinion, but let the players play the game....

 

[BuckeyeBW]

I think it is perfectly fine for players to steal signs and tip off team mates. I also have no problem with coaches talking to players in the dug out of having a meeting on the mound etc. Coaches stealing signs and yelling from the dugout is not cool though. But to each his own.
As I have said in other threads, I used to hate the wristbands but am now a huge fan. I think the reason I hated them is because the first few times I saw them used against us the teams were not efficient with them and it seemed to take forever to get a call in. We use them for offense and defense but on defense our catcher is the only one that has one and she gives a sign to the pitcher. We switch cards from time to time, depending on the team we are playing.