coaches interfering with players

[Chris O'Leary]

The most production (Hits, HR's, Doubles, Triples, RBI's, etc.) is done on the first pitch of the at bat. This says that the hitters are ready to hit and when they do put the ball in play on the first pitch... The pitcher pays.

Hitters hit over .300 in every count with less than two strikes. (even when it's 0-1 )
Hitters hit in the .100's with two strikes (except 3-2 they hit .218)

Fear of making an out on the first pitch simply because it's the first pitch is nonsense. Don't miss an opportunity to do damage on a pitch that you can drive just because it's the first one. Being a good hitter means that you make the pitcher pay for throwing a pitch in your zone (whether it's the first pitch or the ninth pitch)

If you have to take a strike to feel comfortable in the box... Good luck because you only get three.
If you're looking for a walk... Go find a park.

Just my take on it

I'd love to see a study that backs this idea up because it contradicts both what Ted Williams believed and every study I've ever seen.

Dan Agonistes: The Impact of Count

The best counts for hitters are 2-0 and 2-1. They've seen what pitcher has and they know they are probably going to get a strike.

P.S. Enquist is making a completely different point in the clip above.

 

[obbay]

I’m trying to imagine what this 18U “rec team” plays like.

The "Rec" league I'm referring to is made up of teams from several nearby towns (no fields more than 30 min away) that are playing for fun and to work on new positions in the off-season. While the teams are completely independent of the High School teams, each team is composed of a mix of Varsity and JV players. sometimes facing #1 Varsity pitcher, other times facing a JV pitcher. the problem for me is when the daddy coaches start having delusions of grandeur now that they are in charge and start messing with players . they never say anything to the girls who still 'throw like a girl' or throw sidearm (60% accuracy) but they mess with hitting?

I think I've already explained that she takes pitches because she's comfortable doing that. she doesn't walk or strike out often, usually it's a hit and just a question of whether it's a good hit or an out. something I have learned from this thread is that I need to work with her in developing the ability to swing when she gets "her pitch" whether it's the first pitch or not.

Besides leaving the corners out and bringing the middle infield in on bunts, and telling the girls to hit the lower half of the ball they also insist on the players standing way up front in the box (no slappers) regardless of the pitcher. now that I think of it, they may have them crowd the plate as well. In another post here I asked about them insisting on always hitting cutoffs from the OF rather than throwing to the base. (I believe that when the OF can hit the base with a bullet she should make the throw rather than hitting the cutoff)

Some girls do have problems but they do not all have the same problem and do not all require the same "fix"

 

[Country Boy]

This is true. Telling some girls to swing at the first pitch will do as much damage as telling others to take the first pitch. They have to find what makes the most sense to them. Being comfortable at the plate trumps everything else.

I do get what you are saying, but I do not 100% agree. Succeeding at the plate trumps everything else. If a player is comfortable and relaxed at the plate, but consistently not having the success the team needs, my role as a coach is to work with her to improve her performance. And sometimes that includes getting her out of the comfort zone.

If we look at growth, most of it happens when we are challenged and removed from comfort zone. Think of a young pitcher. Throws a fastball and may be comfortable with just that. Then her pitching coach 'forces' her to learn a new pitch. Definitely uncomfortable, but necessary if she is to grow as a pitcher.

Tiger Woods has famously rebuilt his swing several times. He certainly stepped out of his comfort zone because he though it was important to change something so he could get better.

I understand what you are saying about comfort and how advice doesn't work for everyone. I just think a lot of coaching is about making your players uncomfortable so they can get better.

 

[CoogansBluff]

The best counts for hitters are 2-0 and 2-1. They've seen what pitcher has and they know they are probably going to get a strike.

You are correct that 2-0 and 2-1 are better counts than 0-0. But if you take a fat pitch on an 0-0 count, then you're not going to see a 2-0 count, and you're probably not going to see a 2-1 either. That's because the count is now 0-1. Once down in the count 0-1, the MLB batting average in 2011 was .215. So the fact that 2-0 is a better count just means do not swing at BAD pitches on the first pitch. Let the pitcher get behind. But other than that, hitters can't control whether he/she gets a 2-0 count. That's depends partly on the pitcher. But he/she has a lot of control in avoiding the 0-1.

I'm not sure we disagree much here. The only point that I'm adamant about is that, IMO, it is foolish to take the first pitch as a matter of habit. If you're selective, that's fine. That's good in fact. MLB hitters take the first pitch most of the time. But if you go too far in that direction - like swinging at less than 10-15 percent of first pitches - in a competitive environment (ie, not a lot of walks, like A-level TB or college ball, or MLB), then I'd strongly argue that you're not maximizing your opportunities. I doubt any good hitter at those levels are taking the first pitch that often. And I'd love to see how often Ted Williams did it. I'd bet he swung at the first pitch a lot more often that he reports.

 

[CoogansBluff]

As a side note, Ted Williams hit a famous home run in the 1946 all-star game against a pitcher he'd never faced, Rip Sewell. Sewell was known for throwing the eephus pitch (a slow, arching lob). He threw the eephus to Williams on the first pitch. Williams swung at it. He fouled it off. He hit a home run on a 1-2 pitch. Did seeing the pitch 4 times help Williams? Maybe. But why didn't he take the first pitch? I guess only Ted could answer that.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

You are correct that 2-0 and 2-1 are better counts than 0-0. But if you take a fat pitch on an 0-0 count, then you're not going to see a 2-0 count, and you're probably not going to see a 2-1 either. That's because the count is now 0-1. Once down in the count 0-1, the MLB batting average in 2011 was .215. So the fact that 2-0 is a better count just means do not swing at BAD pitches on the first pitch. Let the pitcher get behind. But other than that, hitters can't control whether he/she gets a 2-0 count. That's depends partly on the pitcher. But he/she has a lot of control in avoiding the 0-1.

I'm not sure we disagree much here. The only point that I'm adamant about is that, IMO, it is foolish to take the first pitch as a matter of habit. If you're selective, that's fine. That's good in fact. MLB hitters take the first pitch most of the time. But if you go too far in that direction - like swinging at less than 10-15 percent of first pitches - in a competitive environment (ie, not a lot of walks, like A-level TB or college ball, or MLB), then I'd strongly argue that you're not maximizing your opportunities. I doubt any good hitter at those levels are taking the first pitch that often. And I'd love to see how often Ted Williams did it. I'd bet he swung at the first pitch a lot more often that he reports.

Ted W didn't say to always take the first pitch, but he'd generally take the first pitch from a new pitcher. That meant he'd take it in the first inning but might swing at it in the third.

However, the general idea is to try to calibrate your timing and get a sense of what the pitcher is throwing and how fast.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

If you're looking for a walk... Go find a park.

Just my take on it

It's a common, but totally outdated, approach.

Guys in MLB are making millions of dollars based in their ability to get on base, which includes taking walks.

 

[Greenmonsters]

It's a common, but totally outdated, approach.

Guys in MLB are making millions of dollars based in their ability to get on base, which includes taking walks.

There's a big difference between looking for a walk and taking a walk because you don't get a good pitch to hit. Look at your MLB walk leaders, most are top hitters reaching 3/10 times via hit and 1/10 by walk for a 400 OBP. But if you only hit .200, you probably are gonna get pitched to and won't have an OBP more than .300 - as they say in the Dominican Republic, you can't walk off the island.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

as they say in the Dominican Republic, you can't walk off the island.

That's a cute, but totally outdated, saying.

Patience and discipline are highly valued at the major league level.

 

[chinamigarden]

I think compaing how your DD should bat to Ted Williams is valid. If your dd has 20/10 vision and the fastest hands in the game. If she does not, then perhaps following TWs style while great for him, might not work for you.

There are a lot of great first pitch hitters in MLB. Watch a few games and you will hear a guy described as a good first pitch fastball hitter. In other words he is looking for a fastball in his wheelhouse, if it shows up he is hitting it a long way. Letting that first fat pitch is not working the count in your favor, it puts it in the pitcher's favor. Ted Williams could probably have hit 280 if he was only allowed 1 strike per out, but he was the greatest hitter for average of his generation (and the next few). Too often we compare our dd to the greatests players and say, well if she does it, it must be correct. But the fact of the matter is, often the best are so physically superior they can do things different, or even wrong, and get away with it due to superior talent.