coaches interfering with players

[obbay]

You are not going to wear the pitcher out physically by working the count, but you will see more pitches and have more of a possibility of the pitcher making a mistake while showing you everything she has. If you can work the count in your favor, well, remember that 'go to' pitch you didn't swing at? Get ready.

Exactly! IMHO, the smart batter is watching the pitcher and exercising discipline at the plate. Not to tire out the pitcher but to get a good read on what she has.

I don't think one philosphy or another works for every batter in every situation.

I agree which is why I asked about this in the first place. coaches who are little more than involved parents trying to implement a one-size-fits all approach.

There have been some interesting comments here on both sides. but one thing that many are assuming is that when you see a good pitch right away, you will automatically get a good hit if you swing at it. my observations have shown me otherwise. I agree that after 1 or 2 at-bats you will probably have a good read on the pitcher and can anticipate and go for the good pitches early in the count.
I also agree that taking the first pitch or the first strike isn't the same for everyone, but if you have a player who does it well, don't try to change her just because it doesn't work for your DD, which is the situation DD is in.

My point about rather seeing a 6 pitch K than a 1 pitch IF pop-up was that if I'm giving up an out, the team gets more out of the 6 pitch at-bat. If nothing else, it gives your pitcher a better rest.

 

[quincy]

U have mentioned at least a couple times that they are just parents coaching the Team, that does not mean they are wrong. They might be wrong but just being parents is not the reason.

 

[Country Boy]

I understand what is being said about the value of seeing pitches. But we're ignoring the mental factor. How many really ugly swings at bad pitches do you see when the pitcher has 2 strikes on the batter? I was watching the NLCS last night and saw some ugliness occuring with 2 strikes. If Professional athletes can swing at 'bad' pitches when behind in the count, it can happen to anyone. How many of our players are mentally strong enough to consistently handle being behind in the count? So I will argue that for every ounce of benefit they get from seeing pitches, they lose more due to emotions. We want our players calm and relaxed. There is nothing about a 1-2 count that will help them be relaxed.

I would be interested in the number of swinging K's that are on balls out of the strike zone. I would not be surprised if it is more than 30%. If seeing pitches was the only factor, that should not be the case.

Having said that I believe in a green light on the first pitch, one of my cardinal rules as a coach is: "Don't screw up what is working!" If your dd is swinging one handed, with her shoelaces tied together, eyes crossed, bat upside down; I am not messing with it until she struggles. If she is crushing the ball, I don't care. (I do, but I know she probably won't listen even if I try, so I don't bother)

 

[jinjet95]

My DD played a game recently where the opposing pitcher threw a rise ball on every first pitch. The first 4 batters (this is High School) saw what looked like a fat boy coming and popped it up to the infield. This was an example of a time the subsequent batters should take the first pitch. My DD took the first one her next at bat and hit a double on the 2nd good one she saw. Doesn't work for every pitcher she faces, but in this case it did. The pitcher finally quit throwing a first pitch riseball after the batters quit swinging at it. Every game, every girl is different. I'm a better observer than coach, so I sit back, watch and occasionally ask questions, but try not to second guess the coach we entrust our daughter to. My observation is most coaches don't try to change what's successful.

 

[FPMark]

The more pitches that you take right down the middle for a strike, the lower the odds of getting a hit, IMO.

I just don't see the evidence to support the idea that it's so much harder to hit that first pitch, that you're liable to pop it up, or that taking the first pitch gives you the advantage of knowing that pitcher better.

The batting average in MLB baseball in 2011 for hitters who put the ball in play on the first pitch -- .330.

The batting average in MLB baseball in 2011 for hitters once they are down in the count 0-1 -- .225.

What do I take from those stats? If the first pitch is a fat one, you'd better smack it. If it's not, let it go. I agree w/ the idea of working the count, but not at the expense of taking fat pitches at 0-0.

MLB splits -

Major League 2011 Batting Splits - Baseball-Reference.com

If swinging at the first pitch increases your BA, then MLB players should all be swinging at every first pitch. Does this statistic take into account first pitches that are fouled off, or missed? No it doesn't. Only first pitches put in play. After the first pitch, the same hitter is now down in the count same as the batter that took the first pitch.

I would be more interested in a breakdown of balls put in play on the first pitch verses balls put in play after taking the first pitch.

 

[FPMark]

If the style of the batter is to hit the first pitch (or it is not), then let them most of the time.

You can improve skills, but I think a style is a style (perhaps the mental aspect) and you just can't change a person so much they are not themselves.

They do worse in a situation that is uncomfortable for them.

This is true. Telling some girls to swing at the first pitch will do as much damage as telling others to take the first pitch. They have to find what makes the most sense to them. Being comfortable at the plate trumps everything else.

 

[obbay]

Perfect! That sums it up quite nicely.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I’m having a difficult time relating to the original post.

I’m trying to imagine what this 18U “rec team” plays like. Where we are, there are 18-Gold, 18A, 18B, etc. teams. It isn’t uncommon for a 14A team to beat the majority of 18A teams they face. Leads me to wonder what level an 18U “rec team” would be equivalent to in terms of competitiveness. 14B? 12A?

There were some 18U “rec teams” that I umpired games for, but they were so horrible that I never accepted an umpire assignment at that level again. I mean the pitching was horrible … horrible to the point that you were lucky to see a strike … so if you wanted to have some fun and scorch one, then you had better follow the coaches advice and go after the first good pitch you got … because there wasn’t likely to be another good pitch for the remainder of that at-bat.

At least where I am the 18U “rec teams” are somewhat low-level … and hence I don’t see the reason to get so worked up over them.

What is even more interesting … is that the complaint here is about the coaches coaching … and it is the coaching that is being described as “interfering”. Sort of funny … wouldn’t be surprised if the coaches on this team would have a tale or two to tell about the parents “interfering”.

 

[Jim]

Please everyone just keep it simple. Aggressive simply means "ready to strike".

Be ready to hit your pitch from pitch one and when you have less than two strikes on you. When you get to a count with two strikes, battle, protect and swing at strikes to put the ball in play.

In other words... good hitter's have the same approach 0-0 as they do 3-1. They have the same approach 0-1 as they do 2-0. All counts with less than two strikes. All counts with less than two strikes are "good hitter's counts".

The most production (Hits, HR's, Doubles, Triples, RBI's, etc.) is done on the first pitch of the at bat. This says that the hitters are ready to hit and when they do put the ball in play on the first pitch... The pitcher pays.

Hitters hit over .300 in every count with less than two strikes. (even when it's 0-1 )
Hitters hit in the .100's with two strikes (except 3-2 they hit .218)

Fear of making an out on the first pitch simply because it's the first pitch is nonsense. Don't miss an opportunity to do damage on a pitch that you can drive just because it's the first one. Being a good hitter means that you make the pitcher pay for throwing a pitch in your zone (whether it's the first pitch or the ninth pitch)

If you have to take a strike to feel comfortable in the box... Good luck because you only get three.
If you're looking for a walk... Go find a park.

Just my take on it

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Nice post Jim.