Bat Path

[Mudders Brudder]

Trying to follow along...so what is "eccentric loading" (or how is it defined) in the swing? And while I think I know what "concentric loading" is in the swing (at least I know what it means to me), how are others defining it? TIA.

 

[DRDRODD]

I made some hilights so we could narrow the disagreement focus....The following are from post by you/me.
First, you asked if your interpretation of my theory was correct...


AS you can see. You've misunderstood my theory.
I've rarely mentioned the rear leg as a driver.
If I'm using the rotation of the pelvis to create tension, the rear leg anchor could only stop the creation of that tension. I want the pull and resulting tension to be applied to the bat. Not the rear leg.
Applying brakes to the rear leg would keep me from creating tension. It would restrict the pelvic rotation and the top half would catch up and create slack.
I remove slack pre-swing, then apply more tension via strong lower half rotational movement against a counter rotating top half. Nothing in my theory has anything to do with creating slack in the swing.

.....yet you disagree because of "Tensegrity?"
WTF?

Wow dude that must have took a minute lol but I am glad you did it.

First let me say that I do not have access to a desktop computer until the morning, so I have to use my phone. I didn’t want to leave you hanging for that long. Please note that following your post was very difficult due to me having to scroll up and down to reference certain things. With being said if I missed something you already wrote please try to understand. I didn’t write down notes .


First you need to understand that in the model of Biotensegrity the muscles are considered to be under compression & tension at all times. This is due to the muscle being incased in Fascia. The amount of compression increases when the muscle is contracted or the fascia is lengthened. Which is also why eccentric loading is more efficient than concentric loading, the muscle actually leverages it and vice versa for concentric loading. Which is the reason I said “I was just trying to relate it to the Biotensegrity model but you get the point” or something along those lines.


You are right I may have misunderstood your theory to a certain degree. I will need you to answer a few questions for me to understand it better so please answer these questions.

1) How are you going to use the tension created for delivering more force into the ball at the time of the collision with the bat?

2) What do you consider the rear legs role at swing launch and during the swing?

3) How did the tension at the launch position (typically considered toe touch or heel plant) get created? Don’t Worry About This One I Read Your Answer.

4) What are your thoughts regarding posture?

Edit:

5) When do the muscle contractions take place?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mudders Brudder]

Trying to follow along...so what is "eccentric loading" (or how is it defined) in the swing? And while I think I know what "concentric loading" is in the swing (at least I know what it means to me), how are others defining it? TIA.

OK, after a little searching and rereading, I think I may have answered my own question, because I believe you're saying they're the...

That movement allows tension to be created across the front of the body from the front hip to the rear shoulder and across their back from the left shoulder and back to the rear hip. The spine serves as the anchor point for this tension and the hands/arms can probably be considered an anchor point as well. So once this is complete the engine is ready to go.

...with "concentric loading" being that "created across the front of the body", and the "eccentric loading" being that created "across their back". Yes, no, maybe so? If not, I'm sitting with open eyes, and mind.

Or maybe I'm a little confused on what's pulling on what and/or in which direction(s) for what's written in the bold. Wouldn't the (concentric loading) "tension created across the front of the body" be from the front shoulder to the rear hip, and the (eccentric loading) "across their back" be from the rear hip to the front shoulder? Or do I have that all screwed up as well?

 

[Work=wins]

Mud,

Imo there is a concentric contraction cross body from front shoulder to back leg during the gather. There’s eccentric contraction from front leg to back shoulder during stride. During launch there is a concentric contraction from back shoulder to front leg and an eccentric contraction from front shoulder to back leg into and through contact until finish. 4 contractions cross body with both sides using the eccentric/concentric loading pattern. The middle expedites and organizes the process. That’s how I see it.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Can you point me to where I said braking would add acceleration? Thanks.

My bad.
You said, "the reason you want to brake is to take advantage of the tension being built up." So how would you take advantage of the tension that's built up? What would you do with it?
Then you said, " When you brake the tension is released."
I agree. Releasing tension is useful for check swings.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Can you point me to where I said braking would add acceleration? Thanks.

No comment on the rubber band in the car?

 

[DRDRODD]

OK, after a little searching and rereading, I think I may have answered my own question, because I believe you're saying they're the...

...with "concentric loading" being that "created across the front of the body", and the "eccentric loading" being that created "across their back". Yes, no, maybe so? If not, I'm sitting with open eyes, and mind.

Or maybe I'm a little confused on what's pulling on what and/or in which direction(s) for what's written in the bold. Wouldn't the (concentric loading) "tension created across the front of the body" be from the front shoulder to the rear hip, and the (eccentric loading) "across their back" be from the rear hip to the front shoulder? Or do I have that all screwed up as well?

Both would be Eccentric the lengthening (tensioning) assuming it is a right handed hitter..... Shoulder angle down and in, Show the pitcher your numbers, etc..... the act of distancing the front hip and the rear shoulder and in return the front shoulder and the rear hip will increase distance from each other.

I agree with your post from the other day about the different types of contractions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Wow dude that must have took a minute lol but I am glad you did it.

First let me say that I do not have access to a desktop computer until the morning, so I have to use my phone. I didn’t want to leave you hanging for that long. Please note that following your post was very difficult due to me having to scroll up and down to reference certain things. With being said if I missed something you already wrote please try to understand. I didn’t write down notes .


First you need to understand that in the model of Biotensegrity the muscles are considered to be under compression & tension at all times. This is due to the muscle being incased in Fascia. The amount of compression increases when the muscle is contracted or the fascia is lengthened. Which is also why eccentric loading is more efficient than concentric loading, the muscle actually leverages it and vice versa for concentric loading. Which is the reason I said “I was just trying to relate it to the Biotensegrity model but you get the point” or something along those lines.


You are right I may have misunderstood your theory to a certain degree. I will need you to answer a few questions for me to understand it better so please answer these questions.

1) How are you going to use the tension created for delivering more force into the ball at the time of the collision with the bat?

2) What do you consider the rear legs role at swing launch and during the swing?

3) How did the tension at the launch position (typically considered toe touch or heel plant) get created? Don’t Worry About This One I Read Your Answer.

4) What are your thoughts regarding posture?

Edit:

5) When do the muscle contractions take place?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1). Use the tension to remove core slack and connect the arms to the pelvis. So the pelvic rotation created by the legs transfers to the arms and bat.
2) the rear leg pushes against the pelvis momentarily to aid in rotation. Then it reaches it's ROM limit and is unweighted
4) good posture- good.
bad posture -bad
Stand up straight. My dd has great posture. She 5'8" and everyone thinks she 6'0".
Actually, standing more erect in the swing (neutral spine) allows your spine to turn more easily.
5) yes, they all contract, at different times when necessary. The core muscles align the spine during the forward rotation.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

What if? What if? Stop changing the narrative. What you think is the swing is one big turn starting from the legs up and each piece gets to its EROM and pulls the next piece forward all the way up the chain. But like I’ve told you 1000 times that doesn’t match video. That’s the judge Bobby. Not you or me or anyone. Look at the video. LOOK.

Look at the hips. They don’t even get to 90 degrees on an up and in pitch?? Why is that? If he was rotating from the ground up, why is the pelvis closed at foot down and the torso goes before the back knee? Why does he not have a flat barrel path?

View attachment 18145


As far as the car crash is concerned, when the car crashes(hips) the things in the car (torso) speeds up. What your missing is the torso is ready for the crash(Concentric load) and is ready to use the energy from the car crash to catapult itself. The car analogy before was a good one, but once again you just try to poke holes. If you check into any Kvest stuff you would easily know this.

but like DRD said, you really don’t care to know. That’s okay for you, but what about the players you coach? Wouldn’t you want to at least investigate for yourself to make sure you are doing the best for your players?

Don’t respond if your gonna change the narrative again or not answer the questions I asked about the Altuve clip. It’s a waste of your time and mine.

ABAF swing?
I'm not gonna argue with you about the car crash. I started a new policy about arguing with stupid people. Not gonna do it anymore.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

Mud,

Imo there is a concentric contraction cross body from front shoulder to back leg during the gather. There’s eccentric contraction from front leg to back shoulder during stride. During launch there is a concentric contraction from back shoulder to front leg and an eccentric contraction from front shoulder to back leg into and through contact until finish. 4 contractions cross body with both sides using the eccentric/concentric loading pattern. The middle expedites and organizes the process. That’s how I see it.

Both would be Eccentric the lengthening (tensioning) assuming it is a right handed hitter..... Shoulder angle down and in, Show the pitcher your numbers, etc..... the act of distancing the front hip and the rear shoulder and in return the front shoulder and the rear hip will increase distance from each other.

I agree with your post from the other day about the different types of contractions.

Thanks you guys, but do you see where the confusion comes in? I've got one guy saying "concentric contraction" and "eccentric contraction"...and the other saying both are "eccentric contractions". Somebody there's gonna have to change their opinion, as I can't agree with both of them...right?

Although my biggest question really, is reconciling for myself how "eccentric contraction" comes into play in either of them. Given it's the "lengthening" of a contracting muscle...that's only lengthening because the weight it's trying to contract against is overpowering it if you will (think of a bicep curl that you brought to the top, and when lowering the fatigued muscle is no longer able to hold the weight up, so the muscle is lengthening while still contracting, due to the excessive weight of the barbell or dumb bell...ie. "eccentric contraction"). Here's a reference source you can checkout if anyone's intersted... http://muscle.ucsd.edu/musintro/contractions.shtml

So if you say the front is "concentric contraction" which I agree with, is the rear really in "eccentric contraction", or is the front contraction simply stretching (lengthening) the rear, so the rear can later "concentrically contract" (Stretch Shorten Cycle) to launch the swing?

Said/asked another way...if we believe the rear is eccentrically contracting during the loading process, are we really "stretching" it to it's fullest/greatest capacity with the front's concentric contraction thus decreasing its stretch, and going against the basic SSC preload tenet of "the greater the stretch, the greater the contraction"...thus limiting the strength of the launch that the front and back loading as a whole is supposed to accomplish?

IOWs, if the rear is fighting the "stretch" being applied to it by eccentrically contracting against it...are you truly getting the greatest stretch out of it that its later concentric contraction will have to work with once the determination to suddenly launch is decided, and the rapid reversal of direction is required or called upon?

Hope that's not too many questions, but really, some of them might just be more rhetorical ones to simply show what I'm still pondering and trying to figure out with this new concept of body movements I'm trying to figure out to this point. And that's just the new different contractions being proposed wrt the swing, can't even tell you how the concept of "compressing" muscle has got my head swimming, but that'll be for some other place and time on down the road.

Thanks again, curious to read which direction I should take in this new train of thought. Very interesting really...enjoying the new perspective (Biotensegrity) being put on it all. Cool stuff.