13 YO DD hitting video

[FiveFrameSwing]

You are both correct in your assessment of a knob to the ball mentality, that's what the head coach was teaching us last year. At this point what I'm gathering is that the rotation of her body that is currently present is a result of her initiating the swing with her hands. By teaching her to initiate the swing with her lower body, it will promote connection of the rear elbow with the shoulders. We want the arm movement to be the result of the rotation, not the cause of the rotation, correct?

Yes, the "knob to the ball" mentality is evident in your daughter's swing. MTS, as usual, made a good post explaining that a "barrel to the ball" mentality is more appropriate.

Here is Tewks' demonstration comparing "barrel to the ball" versus "knob to the ball".



As for your description ... you are very close. We want the "initial" lowering of the rear upper arm (inclusive of the rear elbow) to be a result of the lower core rotating ahead of the upper body. The "rear hip" will basically grab the "rear shoulder" ... and that won't happen if the arms/shoulders lead.

 

[Wellphyt]

Coil...

Sequence...

Connection...Get the hands flat correctly


Swing...throw the hands.

 

[Mr T]

Yes, the "knob to the ball" mentality is evident in your daughter's swing. MTS, as usual, made a good post explaining that a "barrel to the ball" mentality is more appropriate.

Here is Tewks' demonstration comparing "barrel to the ball" versus "knob to the ball".

....

As for your description ... you are very close. We want the "initial" lowering of the rear upper arm (inclusive of the rear elbow) to be a result of the lower core rotating ahead of the upper body. The "rear hip" will basically grab the "rear shoulder" ... and that won't happen if the arms/shoulders lead.

I think we're really thinking the same thing indeed, just focusing on different parts more. Alabama said herself that the elbow problem sounds more difficult to correct. You made an astute observation that she is the perfect coach here as she can feel this problem. I am for attacking the easiest problems first so as to get confidence and get her swing going. So... maybe go with Five's advice.

Perhaps on the grip too. I love How to Grip a Bat. Door Knocking Knuckles, Big Knuckles, or Rings? and it helps to read the last lines of this article carefully. I agree knocking can lead to bat drag. Take note on the box grip comments. What the article calls big knuckle aligment can lead to wrist roll. It's also very easy to pretend to hold a bat with this grip and see how it can cause a hitter to push their hands through close to their chest with the hands between the elbows.

I like mostly like this tewks vid. However, if I understand it correctly, it promotes "hands to the ball" over "barrel to the ball". I believe he mistakenly says, "exactly where you don't want it" when he meant to say "exactly where you want it."

I like this vid a lot and it's a great swing. A nitpick: you lose a little power by making a positive move with the arms to bring them along with the hips. This is what Stone calls a "gate swing".

Taking a look at the Pujols and Bush swing on this page is the perfect example. After Bush makes a huge stride, the swings are similar with one major exception: Pujols rotates the hips, which does in fact lower the elbow and bring the knob towards the ball, but he still leaves his hands back. Bush works her hands actively with her hips exactly as Tewks describes. Using hips then hands instead of hips with hands will provide more power.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Mr T, regarding the grip ….

There are many swing flaws that can be solved simply by improving the set-up before the ball is even pitched.

One such pre-set is the grip.

Instead of using a knuckle alignment as a grip guide, consider instead using the wrist angles and having the knuckles take care of themselves.

There are multiple ways to accomplish forming a grip in which the wrist angles are the guide … one such way is to find the barrel slot and apply the hands comfortably to the bat in that position.

Below is a video of Arizona State’s Katelyn Boyd in her stance. Take note of her wrist and forearm angles. Take note of the triangle (imaginary line drawn from forearm-to-forearm and connecting the elbows). Take note of how the rear elbow is raised slightly higher than the lead elbow. As a reference, take note of the knuckle orientation … and here you will see more of an orientation towards the door knocking knuckles of the top hand being aligned with where the wedding ring would be located on the bottom hand. Katelyn's wrist & forearm angles here may even be thought to lead to more of a box grip.

For fun … take note of how the index fingers of both the bottom-hand and top-hand are off the handle of the bat. You’ll see this in a lot of the better hitters. It leads to getting a feel of control in the fingers … specifically in the gripping fingers, ...the ring finger & middle finger.

If you wish to swing with maximum barrel speed, and make full use of the hands, then you’ll want to pre-set the wrist angles, and this will define the knuckle orientation in the grip. If you set the wrist and forearm angles, the knuckle orientation will be set … and it will be set to allow for use of the hands and allow one to obtain maximum barrel speed.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Mr T, IMO more damage is done with a pre-set grip of aligning the door knocking knuckles than many people realize. You were 100% correct when you said it can lead to a ‘bat drag’ issue. A pre-set alignment of the door knocking knuckles most definitely favors the dragging of a barrel. A pre-set alignment of the door knocking knuckles retards the use of the hands, and leads more towards an approach of the “hands” being along for the ride … and while you do want the “arms” to be along for the ride, that is not the case for the “hands”. A pre-set alignment of the door knocking knuckles will favor the powering of the swing with the “arms”, whereas a pre-set alignment of the wrist angles will favor the use of the hands.

 

[Mr T]

Hey Five, I am trying to understand the Tewks video. He keeps saying knob to the ball, barrel to the ball. Boom this way the swing is over, it goes so fast I can't actually tell exactly what he is promoting here.

For the swing we're looking at I think "unwinding" the hands can help but most would say this is a poor correction of the problem.

 

[Mr T]

As a long time rock climber I have like the lower hand index finger off but have my doubts about the upper. The index and middle finger are by far the strongest, and the upper index is obviously on top and thus in a position to give maximum torque to the bat per amount of work applied.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Mr T ... Tewks is promoting "barrel to the ball" ... NOT "knob to the ball".

I'm not certain of what you mean by "unwinding the hands". I have a guess ... but it doesn't quite apply to what I was getting at.

The index fingers off of the barrel is a good topic. Those that complain of bottom-hand thumb pain often aren't doing this with their bottom-hand, and if they are doing this and still complaining, then they generally aren't using their top-hand correctly in terms of generating the torque you mention .... which IMO should be felt "between" the two hands. MTS had some good posts on this, as did some of Howard's followers. I believe Jim has some knowledge in this area of the swing as well and may have an opinion that he'd like to share on it.

 

[Mr T]

Thanks for clearing that up.

About the grip, is Jim the guy from bat jack? If so it looks like his trainer basically does this for your top index finger. So I would assume he is a proponent. Very interesting

 

[starsnuffer]

As a long time rock climber I have like the lower hand index finger off but have my doubts about the upper. The index and middle finger are by far the strongest, and the upper index is obviously on top and thus in a position to give maximum torque to the bat per amount of work applied.

The index finger is not the strongest when it comes to gripping, FFS is correct that the middle and ring are the true gripper fingers. You can ask any martial artist that uses grappling and they will explain how the various wrist locks and such work with just the two "grippers" and the thumb. You actually have a weaker grip when applying pressure with the index finger.

-W