00 DD one year later....comments welcome

[Steve Huff]

I will make only one more comment here. The only pitch a palm up position at 03:00/09:00 enhances is a curve-ball. It is essential for that pitch, as Cat demonstrates. I don't see anything conclusive in partial videos. But this is something we will have to agree to disagree on. I have more to say about how it affects other pitches, but that will be another time.

 

[BoardMember]

I like that we'll have to agree to disgree Steve........

FYI, Scarbough is throwing roll drop and is palm up at 3:00.........Hollowell is throwing peel drop and palm up at 3:00......Knottleman is throwing rise and is palm up at 3:00........Seldon is throwing a "screwgee" and is palm up at 3:00......And Pauly is throwing curve and is palm up at 3:00.......Those positions are very clear in the videos and are a requirement of a full I/R release no matter what pitch is being thrown that doesn't involve a push.......Including backdoor change........

So you're really only disagreeing with reality.........Not me.......I'm only reporting the facts......

Don't LOOK!!! Don't LOOK!!!........

 

[Steve Huff]

I like that we'll have to agree to disgree Steve........

FYI, Scarbough is throwing roll drop and is palm up at 3:00.........Hollowell is throwing peel drop and palm up at 3:00......Knottleman is throwing rise and is palm up at 3:00........Seldon is throwing a "screwgee" and is palm up at 3:00......And Pauly is throwing curve and is palm up at 3:00.......Those positions are very clear in the videos and are a requirement of a full I/R release no matter what pitch is being thrown that doesn't involve a push.......Including backdoor change........

So you're really only disagreeing with reality.........Not me.......I'm only reporting the facts......

Don't LOOK!!! Don't LOOK!!!........

I think you should post about 4 more frames. I don't see anything related to a roll-over in this video.

 

[CoachFP]

Steve you are right. This is not a rollover. I am surprised how many of our esteemed posters don't know the difference between the two kinds of drops even when seeing them in slow motion.

 

[Steve Huff]

Steve you are right. This is not a rollover. I am surprised how many of our esteemed posters don't know the difference between the two kinds of drops even when seeing them in slow motion.

The ball is already coming off her finger tips!

 

[Screwball]

I disagree with a screwgee being palm up. Very difficult way to throw one.

 

[BoardMember]

Wow guys.......What a couple of keen detectives.........I'm thinking Maxwell Smart and the Pink Panther..........

The quote below named all the pitchers and what pitch they were throwing as shown in my previous 2 posts on page 2..........

FYI, Scarbough is throwing roll drop and is palm up at 3:00.........Hollowell is throwing peel drop and palm up at 3:00......Knottleman is throwing rise and is palm up at 3:00........Seldon is throwing a "screwgee" and is palm up at 3:00......And Pauly is throwing curve and is palm up at 3:00.......Those positions are very clear in the videos and are a requirement of a full I/R release no matter what pitch is being thrown that doesn't involve a push.......Including backdoor change........

This clip was just for Steve to wrap his head around regarding his assertion that the ONLY PITCH that happens on is curve ball......

Look Steve.......If your going to make bogus and unsubstantiated claims like this:

But the palm up position puts stress on the inner elbow as it comes down to the 03:00 position. The palm out position, as demonstrated in the Ueno video is a more relaxed joint position

And then completely side-step the truth when it's put on the plate in front of you, and avoid the proof that it's bogus.........

Then why should anyone take advise from you?.........Oh ya......You said it's because it's what your were "told and taught".......

I teach it that way isn't because I am so profound, it is because that is what I was told and taught

I'm not sure where you're from. But that statement as a premise of why someone teaches what they teach, would never fly at the level I teach..........

Here's Smith throwing what you claim is her change up..........Palm up at 3:00........

When you begin denying facts, you've stopped learning.........Never stop learning........

 

[Screwball]

I don't disagree with the palm up part, just on the screwball.

 

[Steve Huff]

And I don't deny that they HAVE their palms up. And I believe it is essential to throwing a curve ball best, along with bent elbow. What I deny is that it promotes any mechanical benefit to the other pitches. Is so, how does it enhance the release of a fastball? It is probably why Dallas Escobedo has such a peculiar release on her riseball. And no, I don't know that she has palm up at 03:00. By the way, the reason I call it 09:00 is because you usually observe the pitcher from the throwing side. That would make her arm behind her at 09:00. And yes, we are detectives and the video didn't pass the smell test. This is a reverse video of Michele Smith. I will bet my last dollar this is a change-up! And I will try to find video of it to see if her hand is palm up at 09:00, but I don't have slow motion anything, so it may take some quick buttons. My claim is simple. You don't like the wall drill because the palm isn't UP at 03:00. Well then what is the advantage? Ueno has many pitches without any ball movement, just speed. She has good control, but she is a bit of a freak also. Her hand goes from the 09:00 position to the release point, palm forward very late. That can't help with spins, especially for younger players. I teach IR and forearm whip. The way I got into it was the way I pitched, as opposed to isolated wrist drills. I have no problem with them, but what do they gain overall? I also pitched modified fastpitch and got called for my arm action quite a bit. It was a natural tendency after fastpich. So I got a revelation that just wrist snap added very little. Curveball we have discussed. A riseball and rollover drop, you are already set up at 09:00 when you have palm out toward 3rd base. You don't have to rotate 90 degrees to get there. A backhanded changeup would require a rotation of 270 degrees. A screwball requires less wrist rotation. A peel requires less wrist rotation. And I see no enhancement that the "03:00" position can add to spin or enhance the snap of the ball or speed. The only thing I believe it adds is stress on the elbow. And anyone can resolve this point by holding a ball in hand, and making the two motions. At 09:00 when the palm is up, the stress on the joint is greater, and anyone can feel the tension. Palm out toward 3rd baseline, and the stress is reduced, yet you can still create IR and bring the elbow to the hip just as effectively.

Any tension in the shoulder, elbow, or wrist reduces potential forces. Just watch someone muscle up and try to swing a bat. Or try to throw a pitch gripping the ball too tight. The wrist becomes restricted.

So, in summation, you can try and present some evidence to the contrary to these points, but videos will not convince me. They are irrelevant. You said I was like a coach who teaches "hello elbow" which is funny, because the students in Europe asked me how many coaches teach bringing the hand to their left ear. I told them almost none! Every coach and clinic they had been to, except Denmark because of Hillhouse, taught hello elbow. So just because people do something doesn't make it good, unless Dr. Sherry Werner tells me so.

 

[2 DD Coach]

I firmly believe in a ground up approach to fixing problems. Doesnt matter if its hitting, throwing or catching. If you dont have the proper base, you will have to overcorrect somewhere else in the chain.
My DD was doing something similar to yours. She would come off her powerline, and everything would look good right up to about 12:00, except that if she stayed true to a correct pitching form, she would be throwing the ball to the left of the plate. She would then leave her arm circle (Overcorrecting to get the ball in line with the plate) which would throw her balance off and she would swim with her glove to try to counterbalance herself. That would force her to lean forward twoards home, as well as slightly to her right, or third base. Fighting that would cause her to slightly close her hips at release, and "pull" her drag foot along behind her.

All that is a long way of saying, IMOP start with the powerline problem. Once she fixes that, quite a few of these other things may be corrected simply by way of her not having to fight to get the ball realigned to the plate. I drew out a powerline on the ground and had my DD throw into a net in front of her so she wouldnt worry about where the pitch was going. She just needed to focus on her push off and landing on the powerline over and over. Once she got that taken care of the posture problems and leaving the arm circle fixed itself.