Windmill - Arm position at 3/4 down position

[SoCalSoftballdad]

I remember that thread.........It was a thread were I explained the purpose of creating "lag" to facilitate whip.......

I posted several examples that you claimed were to "Grainy" to verify.........I remember asking you to view the original clip of Finch in quicktime and tell me what you saw at 3:00 (report back).......You accused me of copping an attitude........When I was only trying to help people understand the importance of creating lag.......I see you're still denying it.........And you have that right of course........

This was your quote:


I was trying to explain to you AND the board that as the arm/hand/ball transitions from 12:00 to 3:00 that ball is working to face the sky...........Palm up...........As a matter of bio-mechanics for creating whip from lag............

So.........One more time.........For those truely interested in high level pitching mechanics.......

Keeping in mind that you can only see what you want to see..........

Hillhouse going from palm to 3rd.......to palm to the sky at 3:00..........

Alicia Hollowell going palm up..........

Sarah Pauly Palm to the sky at 3:00.........I believe after I posted Sarah Pauly in this position........"SoftballDad" stopped posting in that thread..........And now he's here claiming he's never seen an elite pitcher "palm to the sky" again...........Frankly, I just don't get it..........

And last but not least...........Cat Osterman going Palm to the sky........And maintaining lag until release........

Again........Without any attitude..........You can ONLY see what you WANT to see.........

How many of these "elite" pitchers are "wiping the chalk board with the ball" on the way down the circle.........And how many of them do this........



I would say exactly........ZERO..........

Creating LAG........Going Palm UP (slightly more or less) is essential to creating the HIGHEST LEVEL mechanics........

In the first still of Fowler at ALMOST but NOT QUITE 3:00 Tom posted above.......(which I can't include because of the picture limit on this board).....She is transitioning from Palm to 3rd.......To Palm Up...........Creating LAG..........In the second picture he posted she is NOT at 3:00.........And the ball is more toward 3rd..........

If you use some imagination..........Call the second picture the FIRST frame........And the first picture the SECOND frame........And you will understand why the ball is facing MORE toward third then MORE toward the sky are she reaches ALMOST 3:00.........

Sorry for the interuption of the thread.........But good and "verifiable" information is important..........

Carry on with how the palm/ball faces "more toward 3rd" at 3:00.............

There's a reason I don't teach it that way...........Everyone's different.........And so is the level of pitchers being produced.........

BM - thanks for the detailed post and the last video showing Cat performing a warm-up drill where she has palm to the sky at 3:00 (couldn't see that position on the earlier vids). What I didn't fully realize is that the hand/arm rotates open by 3:00 thus creating the "lag" during the last half of the arm circle. So if I understand it correctly, from 12:00 to 6:00 (release) that the palm of the hand actually goes from facing catcher; to slightly closed to 3B; back open to palm to the sky; and lastly facing catcher at release. The "palm to the sky" move creates the lag which increases the arm whip and the speed of the pitch. Correct?

 

[go4fpsb]

If you have access to Right View pro and the clips of pitchers from the NPF league an example of what BM describes can be seen in the clip of Amanda Freed throwing a screw ball.(There are others) I believe the loading or pinching of the scapula from the 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock position causes the humerus bone to rotate externally putting the palm in the "sky" position. The pinching of the scapula is caused by the closing from an open position of the shoulders to an approximately 45 degree angle and stopping. The rest of the motion from 9 o'clock to release is just what the body wants to do naturally, that is the IR motion. When you see a good athlete use IR, it looks effortless, like they aren't trying very hard to throw it that fast. Sort of like watching Terrelle Pryor from OSU run, he doesn't look like he's running hard but no one's gaining on him. JMHO.

 

[BoardMember]

The pinching of the scapula is caused by the closing from an open position of the shoulders to an approximately 45 degree angle and stopping

Go.......Although your thoughts are in the right place........The pattern you think you see, simply isn't what you think it is...........We should avoid telling people that lag is created by scap retraction due to the the shoulders closing back to the target........This is simply not correct..........And the timing of this move is critical..........The rear shoulder should NOT begin realignment untill lag.........

Lag is actually created from keeping the ball as close to the angular momentum plane as possible.......

Doing this requires that the rear shoulder actually opens a bit during the "over the top" portion of the arm swing..........Which causes the rear scap to "slide" freely toward the spine..........Which by the way, can happen even if you keep the ball facing 3rd on the way down.......But won't give optimum whip.......because you've cut off 1/2 of the I/R velocity generator..........

While this happens..........The lead arm/shoulder is also opening slightly as a counter move as the front scap slides freely toward the spine as well.........Similar to breaking the hands in the overhand throw.........

What you'll notice in MOST high level pitchers is...........The rear shoulder is "realigning" with the front shoulder from 3:00 to 6:00 during the I/R motion..........This move appears as "shoulder rotation".........but is really just realignment of the peices........."Coming back together" so to speak........Or back to "neutral" where they WANTED to be in the first place..........

If you look at these clips........You'll see very little shoulder rotation (as a complete complex).....From the 12:00 to 3:00...........and more of an "opening" of the shoulders independent of each other..........

Stare at Bill's shoulder line from 12 to 3........The front opens......and the rear opens..........Then the rear realigns with the front from 3 to 6............

I think any "good coach" would tell you NOT to close your shoulders from 12 to 3..........

Watch how little Sarah Paulys shoulders rotate (as a complete complex) before 3:00..............Again........The front opens......and the rear opens..........Then the rear trys to realign with the front from 3 to 6.........But she is throwing a curve so she's purposely over rotating the front side open to get the fingers cutting across...........But the complete complex isn't moving much until AFTER 3:00.........

By the way people.........I froze Sarah AT 3:00..........this is when the ball is FACING 3:00.........Anything (still pics previously shown) before this position is NOT YET 3:00...........

Also look at Cat again.........Little to NO shoulder rotation in the sequence from top to bottom......

The simple fact is these pitchers can "choose" what ball position they want at 3:00.....Facing down.......Facing third.......Or Facing up.........and they are "biomechanically smart enough" to know that palm up creates the BEST position to whip from.......Even if they don't PHYSICALLY know this is what they're doing........

Because they HAVE NOT been taught to "wipe the wall/chalkboard" with the ball.........or to PUSH THE BALL down the circle and pull it up...........

This is what Bill meant when he said you can COACH the natural move OUT of good mechanics if you want to...........And THOUSANDS of PC's do exactly that..........

Again.......IMO.........The best drills a young pitcher can do are to rock it up to 3:00, palm to the sky..........and "bust it off".............and THEN "Show it and Throw it".......Once they learn the "lag position" they WANT to be at from 3:00.........Which IS NOT ball/palm to 3rd base........

 

[BoardMember]

By the way......This brings up ONE MORE GOOD POINT.........

The next time you "key in" on making sure the glove and front shoulder isn't "waving out" from the power line.........You may want to rethink what you doing to the pitchers "whip" mechanics..........

Funny........no one ever said anything to Bill about his glove "waving" out from the powerline........

 

[lhowser]

Posts #31,#32 and #34 are essentials in the collection of understanding the arm movement to release. Apparently Boardmember is not content with one legendary contribution to the forum! (internal rotation). He must build on the legacy! Nice video. MUCH appreciated.

 

[lhowser]

Boardmember sez:

Watch how little Sarah Paulys shoulders rotate (as a complete complex) before 3:00..............Again........The front opens......and the rear opens..........Then the rear trys to realign with the front from 3 to 6.........But she is throwing a curve so she's purposely over rotating the front side open to get the fingers cutting across...........But the complete complex isn't moving much until AFTER 3:00.........

Boardmember...would you say the reason that Cat does not throw as hard as many other pitchers of her size and accomplishment is because she does not create as large a separation between the shoulders as many others (like Sarah) does as evidenced by their flying glove hand??

 

[Amy in AZ.]

Sarah Pauly has her own site, with motion analysis. Her father posts on several boards, himself.

Fastpitch Pitching

 

[tomzpc]

Great stuff again BM. Thanks much!

 

[go4fpsb]

Go.......Although your thoughts are in the right place........The pattern you think you see, simply isn't what you think it is...........We should avoid telling people that lag is created by scap retraction due to the the shoulders closing back to the target........This is simply not correct..........And the timing of this move is critical..........The rear shoulder should NOT begin realignment untill lag.........

Lag is actually created from keeping the ball as close to the angular momentum plane as possible.......

Doing this requires that the rear shoulder actually opens a bit during the "over the top" portion of the arm swing..........Which causes the rear scap to "slide" freely toward the spine..........Which by the way, can happen even if you keep the ball facing 3rd on the way down.......But won't give optimum whip.......because you've cut off 1/2 of the I/R velocity generator..........

While this happens..........The lead arm/shoulder is also opening slightly as a counter move as the front scap slides freely toward the spine as well.........Similar to breaking the hands in the overhand throw.........

What you'll notice in MOST high level pitchers is...........The rear shoulder is "realigning" with the front shoulder from 3:00 to 6:00 during the I/R motion..........This move appears as "shoulder rotation".........but is really just realignment of the peices........."Coming back together" so to speak........Or back to "neutral" where they WANTED to be in the first place..........

If you look at these clips........You'll see very little shoulder rotation (as a complete complex).....From the 12:00 to 3:00...........and more of an "opening" of the shoulders independent of each other..........

Stare at Bill's shoulder line from 12 to 3........The front opens......and the rear opens..........Then the rear realigns with the front from 3 to 6............

I think any "good coach" would tell you NOT to close your shoulders from 12 to 3..........

Watch how little Sarah Paulys shoulders rotate (as a complete complex) before 3:00..............Again........The front opens......and the rear opens..........Then the rear trys to realign with the front from 3 to 6.........But she is throwing a curve so she's purposely over rotating the front side open to get the fingers cutting across...........But the complete complex isn't moving much until AFTER 3:00.........

By the way people.........I froze Sarah AT 3:00..........this is when the ball is FACING 3:00.........Anything (still pics previously shown) before this position is NOT YET 3:00...........

Also look at Cat again.........Little to NO shoulder rotation in the sequence from top to bottom......

The simple fact is these pitchers can "choose" what ball position they want at 3:00.....Facing down.......Facing third.......Or Facing up.........and they are "biomechanically smart enough" to know that palm up creates the BEST position to whip from.......Even if they don't PHYSICALLY know this is what they're doing........

Because they HAVE NOT been taught to "wipe the wall/chalkboard" with the ball.........or to PUSH THE BALL down the circle and pull it up...........

This is what Bill meant when he said you can COACH the natural move OUT of good mechanics if you want to...........And THOUSANDS of PC's do exactly that..........

Again.......IMO.........The best drills a young pitcher can do are to rock it up to 3:00, palm to the sky..........and "bust it off".............and THEN "Show it and Throw it".......Once they learn the "lag position" they WANT to be at from 3:00.........Which IS NOT ball/palm to 3rd base........

BM, Thanks for the reply without the attitude some add to their posts. I understand what you are saying about not closing the shoulders. In the clips you provide the shoulders are not completely opened to 3rd with the front shoulder pointed at the catcher. What I meant was if the pitcher was completely opened then they would rotate the shoulders to the position in the clips you posted. From your comments I think I was agreeing with you just didn't put it well. I am glad to see you posting again, you input is very much appreciated. Now if we could get MarkH back on the hitting threads.

 

[go4fpsb]

Sarah Pauly has her own site, with motion analysis. Her father posts on several boards, himself.

Fastpitch Pitching

When Sarah's dad, Rick was posting on the Delphi Fastpitch Analysis he really provided a lot of good information. That forum was really good for awhile then just died out.