I haven't really figured out how to explain it without getting technical, so I mostly resort to demonstrations. My DD had elbow and shoulder pain from the the wrist flicks and 90 degree L position. She then slipped into sidearm. It took awhile and Austin Wasserman's Arm Behind Drill really got her to feel the correct sequence, which in turn has allowed her throw further without pain. Now she will do that drill while just playing catch.
Throwing progression
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I haven't really figured out how to explain it without getting technical, so I mostly resort to demonstrations. My DD had elbow and shoulder pain from the the wrist flicks and 90 degree L position. She then slipped into sidearm. It took awhile and Austin Wasserman's Arm Behind Drill really got her to feel the correct sequence, which in turn has allowed her throw further without pain. Now she will do that drill while just playing catch.
I really think its dependent on the coach. We went to a D1 clinic in the fall and the HC had the team do their warmups before the clinic started. (we were an hour early, and just observing what was going on) The college girls started their throws with Progressions. When the girls for the clinic got there, they had them do throwing progressions as part of the warm up for the clinic.
An article I wrote on eliminating wrist flicks and "L" position throws. Train movements through the throw...not positions.
Eliminate Wrist Flicks
Softball Throwing Mechanics: Why Your Softball Players Have Elbow Pain…Wrist Flick Edition
Stability Ball Throws
Baseball & Softball Throwing Mechanics: Stability Ball Throws
For more information on throwing progressions email me at austin@abathletics.com to discuss further!
Thanks!
Austin
Eliminate Wrist Flicks
Softball Throwing Mechanics: Why Your Softball Players Have Elbow Pain…Wrist Flick Edition
Stability Ball Throws
Baseball & Softball Throwing Mechanics: Stability Ball Throws
For more information on throwing progressions email me at austin@abathletics.com to discuss further!
Thanks!
Austin
- Oct 10, 2011
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So I've read this multiple times and the throwing threads and am still confused. What is actually being taught by the best instructors? Austin, I enjoyed the articles and it has brought up a lot of discussions, but is this what is being taught by the best, or what should be being taught? I've been trying to help my DD improve her throw, but if I have her take the ball behind her head, her coaches might "correct" her
redhotcoach
Out on good behavior
- May 8, 2009
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Just what I have found....you have to hunt through millions of pages of info, for months and months, mostly through male pitching sites, to find "HOW TO THROW"! Not what not to do! But what TO do! Lots of info on what the arm does...but is a throw all arm?
Austin...what do you teach girls? Boys seem to throw ok on their own. BUT girls...I know myself, I have started teaching the same mechanics that I teach for powering a swing. BUT I hear coaches teach... "Dig your front foot in and pull" "push off your back foot" "bow your chest and release" "lead with your shoulder and whip your arm"
It's all over the place....What happens in a high level throw?
Austin...what do you teach girls? Boys seem to throw ok on their own. BUT girls...I know myself, I have started teaching the same mechanics that I teach for powering a swing. BUT I hear coaches teach... "Dig your front foot in and pull" "push off your back foot" "bow your chest and release" "lead with your shoulder and whip your arm"
It's all over the place....What happens in a high level throw?
- Oct 10, 2011
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I think the beginning of that throwing thread should start out "please take 2 aspirin before reading."
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ImLearning, It's funny because the "best instructors" whoever they may be ( I haven't seen a good softball overhand throwing coach ever), ASA, High School & College Coaches honestly don't understand throwing patterns from a biomechanical standpoint, they don't watch enough video to understand what is actually happening and they continue to teach the same thing over and over again (wrist flicks, L setups etc) because that is what they were taught and it's easy to teach a large group of kids this typical throwing pattern. You wonder why everyone is taught the same thing and then there are those girls who throw harder, with less effort, without any arm pain and you think how is this different? When the girls are taught the same exact thing from the same coach, yet there's a different result. It all comes down to training movement patterns...not positions.
Your daughter's coach will most definitely correct her because he/she doesn't understand the mechanisms that have to happen in throwing and they probably have not watched hours and hours of video for the past 5 years to understand why this drill is beneficial. I used to teach the same exact thing as what everyone else used to teach...and then I started watching video of the best players..and digging deeper.. and different things were happening...and started questioning everything I was ever taught. I realized that what was being taught doesn't happen in a high level throw..
To answer your question.. the same old terrible throwing mechanics are being taught by coaches all over the country. There are a few baseball pitching guys that have some decent information (Tom House, Alan Jaeger) but still very incomplete in their teaching.
I consider myself the best throwing instructor in this area, if not the country, not because I'm saying I'm different just to be different, but because of the information I am teaching, the amount of video I have watched on the best baseball/softball players in the world, my biomechanics/exercise physiology background and most important...practical application. The old approach just doesn't work anymore. Positions cannot be taught. Movements must be trained.
RedHotCoach, I teach the same patterns to baseball & softball players. The throwing motion is at same. The progressions might be a little different and some drills may be used over others...it just depends on the player. Every athlete is different, so the approach has to be different. There are also some anatomical differences between males and females that need to be considered (carrying angle) but the pattern is the same. Boys have some pretty gnarly throwing motions as well.. sometimes just as bad as girls, if not worse.
- Oct 10, 2011
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Her coaches are former college baseball players and they also teach the "L" setup. They feel the "Throwmax" is the answer to most of her problems with throwing properly.
Again, just because they played college baseball, does not mean they know how to teach high level throwing patterns. I played college baseball at UConn and played professional baseball for multiple seasons, but I don't use that for the reason I teach what I teach. At that level, these patterns are not taught. By college, these patterns are already instilled in the athletes. I have had numerous coaches that have played in major league baseball, yet cannot relay the information properly to their athletes because they just don't understand what is happening. Just because a coach can throw efficiently, does not mean they can teach how they throw to others...
As to the throwmax... I wrote about this in a previous thread:
The ThrowMax is not a bad product.... actually it is a bad product and it's not the company's fault for not completely understanding throwing mechanics and what actually happens during a throw. The entire 6 phase throwing diagram describes positions. Throwing is not a position. Throwing is a movement through specific positions in order to achieve an end result. My book on Throwing Patterns will be available soon (Release in March, fingers crossed)
As a Strength & Conditioning coach, having studied biomechanics and kinesiology, the use of this product will most likely decrease velocity and may actually induce shoulder injuries... not elbow injuries.
The reason why athletes have elbow pain is because of poor teaching of throwing mechanics, specifically ARM ACTION & SEQUENCE, poor throwing programs, poor pre and post throwing protocols and overuse. It's not because of the elbow angle during late cocking and acceleration.
Below are clips that this company has on their website. Pure pushing and pure spinning motions. The arm starts back, point the ball away, classic demonstration, step and throw. This motion is completely incorrect.
This image is actually really funny because the kid on the left is correct and the kid on the right is incorrect. I can post some clips of any high level thrower and you will see that they do not perfom the throwing style as posted on the right in the picture. It just doesn't happen.
Kid on the right: has the brace on, points the ball away, glove is tucked, step and throw. Minimal velocity, pure spinning, no separation, possible shoulder injury.
Kid on the left: no brace, elbow is above shoulder, thoracic extension occurring, lead arm not doing anything (which is awesome because this allows for thoracic extension and will ultimately lead to max external rotation and max velocity), no spinning motion, shoulder is protected because other structures will be involved to decelerate the crazy internal rotation forces of the throwing shoulder.
Why Your Softball Players Have Elbow Pain: Wrist Flick Edition
Training Movement Patterns
As to the throwmax... I wrote about this in a previous thread:
The ThrowMax is not a bad product.... actually it is a bad product and it's not the company's fault for not completely understanding throwing mechanics and what actually happens during a throw. The entire 6 phase throwing diagram describes positions. Throwing is not a position. Throwing is a movement through specific positions in order to achieve an end result. My book on Throwing Patterns will be available soon (Release in March, fingers crossed)
As a Strength & Conditioning coach, having studied biomechanics and kinesiology, the use of this product will most likely decrease velocity and may actually induce shoulder injuries... not elbow injuries.
The reason why athletes have elbow pain is because of poor teaching of throwing mechanics, specifically ARM ACTION & SEQUENCE, poor throwing programs, poor pre and post throwing protocols and overuse. It's not because of the elbow angle during late cocking and acceleration.
Below are clips that this company has on their website. Pure pushing and pure spinning motions. The arm starts back, point the ball away, classic demonstration, step and throw. This motion is completely incorrect.
This image is actually really funny because the kid on the left is correct and the kid on the right is incorrect. I can post some clips of any high level thrower and you will see that they do not perfom the throwing style as posted on the right in the picture. It just doesn't happen.
Kid on the right: has the brace on, points the ball away, glove is tucked, step and throw. Minimal velocity, pure spinning, no separation, possible shoulder injury.
Kid on the left: no brace, elbow is above shoulder, thoracic extension occurring, lead arm not doing anything (which is awesome because this allows for thoracic extension and will ultimately lead to max external rotation and max velocity), no spinning motion, shoulder is protected because other structures will be involved to decelerate the crazy internal rotation forces of the throwing shoulder.
Why Your Softball Players Have Elbow Pain: Wrist Flick Edition
Training Movement Patterns
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