Why so much talk about pitching speed?

[ang4yanks]

Mark:

My point was, IMO, it's not a question of different philosophies. Throwing hard is one skill. Throwing accurately is another skill. Throwing hard accurately is another skill. If you learn to throw accurately slow, you are going have to learn to throw accurately hard assuming you do want to throw hard some day and when you get in trouble, the temptation will always be there to back off on the effort to throw strikes. Learn to use your body maximally and then practice till you can do it accurately.

Mark H,

The difference in philosophy can be found in the prioritizing of those components, including using your body maximally.

Ang

 

[brath]

HOWEVER...

...to be a high level pitcher, there is a certain minimum speed requirement.

If you don't think so, you are kidding yourself!

I watch as much college fastpitch as anyone and I can't think of a pitcher that throws LESS than the lower 60's...can you?

That's M U C H faster than 85% of girls will ever reach.

IMHO, the vast majority don't reach their speed potential.

Speed is important and ALWAYS will be.

You can teach a girl throwing 65mph to throw movement pitches. Can you teach a girl with good movement to throw 65mph?

Keith

Speed is very important, don't get me wrong, but movement is the key. You can teach speed easily with strenght and speed drills, but movement is very hard to learn for allot of girls. The older the batter gets the better she will pick up timeing and power on a strait fast pitch. Movement is hard to hit, as long as it is true movement. The younger a pitcher learns movent and makes it accurate it is all the better. The older a pitcher gets the stronger she gets, wich means the faster she throws and the more the ball moves. My pitchers are not true burners, they will average around the high fourties to the low fifties in the 14u age group, but movement will earn them allot of K's.

 

[ang4yanks]

Herb:

The videos can be found at http://www.ernieparkervideos.com/

On occassion, Ernie pops his head up in here. It can take my husband and dd a long time to dissect the video and make the applications. On some occassions, they may tweak this or that. I have a feeling I will be posting very soon for feedback on the wrist location on the rise (I see them watching the video and exploring this area , but they are still assessing the video and her application...

Herb, it's great you are providing your parents with as many reliable resources as possible. The hope is athletes learn correctly from the start. My husband and dd are students together. When all is said and done, I bet my husband will make a good pitching instructor. They study videos, college games, written material, etc.

Best wishes,

Ang

 

[Rick Pauly]

A few of my thoughts relative to speed.
There are numerous laws of physics involved in pitching. One very important law relative to centrifugal force is very important when talking about the importance of speed.
In order to throw faster a pitcher must increase the ability to overcome the centrifugal force that a ball places on the fingers as it is spinning in a circle and then being launched. Notice I said fingers since they are at the end of the kinetic chain in pitching. Increasing a pitchers "grip strength" is paramount in increasing speed. The drills Marc has indicated (distance/walk-ins) will definitely increase that grip strength. Obviously, mechanics, genetics, and timing are very important. But given that those things are relatively in place then doing Marcs drills will definitely show results.
Now having said "grip strength" I'll bet many of you are wonder/thinking of other weight training drills that you can have your pitcher do to increase her grip-----many don't require pitching.
A side note relative to speed/grip strength; the faster a pitcher gets---- the stronger the grip, the better the control, the better the ability to spin the ball. For those that don't sign up for working on increasing speed-----the other benefits seem to offer a compelling reason to rethink your position.
Pitching skills should be measured in every possible way to take the subjectivity out of it and to set clear goals and hence measure improvement. Radar guns, RevFire spin meters, throwing distance, number of pitches in 30/60 seconds are a few.
One of the nice things about young ladies is that they are very competitve---put a measurement tool on them and they will "scratch your eyes out" if that helps beat their previous best.

Rick

 

[Mark H]

Mark H,

The difference in philosophy can be found in the prioritizing of those components, including using your body maximally.

Ang

I'm saying if you don't start with a foundation of using your body maximally it's problematic to go back and add to that foundation after you build a house on top of it. Having said that, if you don't do a good job with location and spin control you will still be sleeping in the rain on top of a good foundation.

 

[ang4yanks]

I'm saying if you don't start with a foundation of using your body maximally it's problematic to go back and add to that foundation after you build a house on top of it. Having said that, if you don't do a good job with location and spin control you will still be sleeping in the rain on top of a good foundation.

Hey there, Mark...

We are in agreement and I think getting hung up on semantics

I went water skiing ONCE (yikes!). All I remember was being instructed (you have to bend your knee, elbows back, arms up, keep your hands...etc.) I tried numerous times, only once did I say to myself, "I am doing it! I have put it all together!" before SPLASH!!!

Loosely, I view softball pitching this way. As you stated above (and posted by others) it's putting components together in precision timing. There is a lot of rhetoric (everywhere you go) about speed as if it is the number one priority. It is very important, but must be seen in context of many other discussions in this forum. What I meant by philosophy would refer to a coach who assesses an athlete's performance solely on their speed OR location (one component). Our family philosophy is solid mechanics, understanding how each part of your body contributes to the pitch, and location, location, location. DD is 13 and is only beginning puberty. More emphasis will be put on her speed when everything else falls into place. She is in the low to mid 50's consistently.

My husband was assistant coach on my son's baseball team last year (10U). They had been developing his change up and hitting corners. In a game sitation we were up three runs. They got a basehit, and the count was full. The coach went to the mound and said, "I don't give a #?! what you dad says about the corners, just throw strikes!!!" We are no longer playing with them. His philosophy was not about athletic development or even putting the components together. Winning at any cost is his philosophy.

Hope that clears up my position. One of the earlier posts that has stuck in our head is consistent foot plant and 1:00 position of the arm precisely at the same time will naturally develop speed and accuracy...ya'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was Ernie.

Ang

 

[Mark H]

I agree with all that BUT, getting a kid's mechanics right can only get them close. Much of what is important to get that last few percent to get from good to great the athlete has to teach themselves in terms of what "feel" results in better spin and speed. Immediate objective feedback in terms of what it feels like to her when "better" happens is key to progress. Learning is really about trial and error progress. Instructing is about shortening that learning curve. Hopefully a LOT.

 

[ang4yanks]

Indeed. I guess the sword I am willing to die on would be consideration of their body maturation...I fear that pushing performance before the body is ready can be a recipe for disaster, but this is an area for caution, not black and white.

I STRONGLY agree with your point of "feeling" it when you get it right. Those points apply to many things in life. My oldest is taking Algebra II, and I refer to the moments where everything comes together as "Ah ha!" moments. Only after that is achieved can one move forward.

Good instructors understand how to teach the information so a person's learning curve can be shortened. The movie buff I am, let me refer to "Akeeyah and the Bee." Rather than providing an explanation, you can watch...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UrjQTYl7fd8&feature=related

If you do not wish to watch the entire clip, forward ahead on the clip to the 4:35 point.

Much to do with learning styles.

Great exchange Mark H!

Ang

 

[bigdaddy]

My feeling on this issue aligns with Mark H.

I believe that throwing hard is a skill and I believe throwing with control is a skill.

My DD swam competitively for a few years. For MANY years swim practices consisted of swimming 1000's of yards at moderate pace. The thinking was that you would ingrain the stroke by swimming under control for 2 hours. Of course, a swimmer in the sprint events is swimming on the very edge of control. Now, swim practices are tailored for sprinters. They focus on LOTS of sprinting because we now know that sprinters need to learn to swim fast!

You may very well learn the stroke well by swimming slowly BUT when you try to use what you've learned at maximum speed, the stroke falls apart BECAUSE swimming slowly and in control and swimming as fast as possible on the edge of control are two different skills!


To me, for a pitcher to reach their speed potential, they must pitch on the edge of control (body control), so why not practice this from the begining? Of course there needs to be a foundation of acceptable mechanics. In my limited experience, my DD "learned" more about how to throw--how to use her (little) body efficiently by practicing throwing until her eyes bulged out!

I just don't see SPEED and CONTROL as mutually exclusive. JMHO

Keith

 

[Mark H]

This clip Marc recommended by email and I think it's got much to recommend it. She talks about taking the accuracy problem out of the equation while learning to use the body maximally to develop and impart energy. Now if she added a radar gun on the other side of that fence with a readout she could see for immediate objective feedback she would have the package. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKL56jCzluU